Re: At last some good news

When my daugther was growing up in 1990s York, I bought the house so that she could at least play out on the cul-de-sac - even as a 3 year old but she had defined areas that were in and out of bounds, as she got older these were relaxed gradually, but she had nothing like the freedom those in their 40s had as young un's were even as a six year old I could have been a couple of mile from my front door down the woods and not have been in trouble. The one rule I had was that I wasn't meant to cross Bradford Road - the road that dissects Northowram, but aged 8 I was flouting this to go and play in the 'Gas Pond' which was full of frogs and taddies.

Share

Re: At last some good news

Mol wrote:
Travis Bickle wrote:

I do have a child, I just don't feel it necessary to tell everyone how much I despise child molesters.

.

As do I. But the implication was clearly that we couldn't possibly have a valid opinion, real insight or concept of right or wrong otherwise. At that point it stopped being a discussion and became a consensus of nodding cunts. I'll leave you to it, I've said all I want to say on this.

The "nodding cunts" is a tad strong isn't it?
People have their opinions and surely should be free to express them.

Anyone read John Douglas's book, or one of them?
He was the first really big profiler for the FBI (Scott Glenn's character in Silence of the Lambs was based on him), one of the major points he put across is that these people; rapists, torture killers; child rapist/killers; etc; are not curable. They are not wired up the same as the rest of us and the idea of rehabilitation and all that is a non starter. He made the point that these people should be kept out of society.
So, if you want to lock them up forever rather than the death penalty then its getting them off the streets and out of society - fair enough.
But its a "non-life"; being locked up for the rest of your natural. Is it really that much different from death?
Or is the idea; when disagreeing to the death penalty; to keep one's own conscience clear?
In which would they all go in the one big Perverts Prison; or shared around with the same threats that are there now?
Personally I'm not sure about the death penalty in theory; but like other posters, if someone interfered with one of my kids, I'm sure I'd want to tear them limb from limb. I'll certainly not be losing any sleep over any of these beasts that get done inside.
I'll always remember being taken back a bit when my lovely Mum got all quietly vicious about the Ripper: "They should give him to the mothers" she said with a slightly frightening steely gaze. I find it hard to disagree with her.

Oof Marone!

Share

Re: At last some good news

I don't know why everyone is getting all personal about it.  It's not a personal issue, it's an opinion on whether we encarcerate or excecute our very worst.  It's an intellectual argument about revenge, guilt, responsibility and morality.  Can you compare the impact on either a hangman or the jailer who passes food through a hole to the lifer for 30 years?  What about the parole boad who free a child murderer who murders again?  What about the child murderer who is allowed to socialise in prison then is attacked and successfully sues the prison service for £100k (using £900k of legal aid).  £100k being 10X the amount the inmate's original victims' families received?

Who's emotions are most important?  I think it is a collective avoidance of guilt and responsibility by weak politicians?  Myra Hindley almost became a media celebrity, courted by doddery old Lords when in fact whe was just a vile bitch.  She was allowed to smoker herself to death whilst also taking educational courses not available to those who earn an honest living.

Testimony from Dave Hill:

"[Brady] opened the door and he said in a very loud voice for him [...] "Do you want those miniatures?" I nodded my head to say yes and he led me into the kitchen [...] and he gave me three miniature bottles of spirits and said: "Do you want the rest?" When I first walked into the house, the door to the living room [...] was closed. [...] Ian went into the living room and I waited in the kitchen. I waited about a minute or two then suddenly I heard a hell of a scream; it sounded like a woman, really high-pitched. Then the screams carried on, one after another really loud. Then I heard Myra shout, "Dave, help him," very loud. When I ran in I just stood inside the living room and I saw a young lad. He was lying with his head and shoulders on the couch and his legs were on the floor. He was facing upwards. Ian was standing over him, facing him, with his legs on either side of the young lad's legs. The lad was still screaming. [...] Ian had a hatchet in his hand [...] he was holding it above his head and he hit the lad on the left side of his head with the hatchet. I heard the blow, it was a terrible hard blow, it sounded horrible."

I'd offer you a beer, but I've only got six cans.

Share

Re: At last some good news

OX25 wrote:
Cutsyke wrote:

I want kids to have a childhood again. Mine are 11 and 9. They've never gone off playing on their own like I did when I was a kid, all day Saturday and Sunday up Tempsy, back before dark midweek, all while in infant school. Why? Because of cunts like this fucking child molester.

I've got a 9 and 11 year old too. I've tried not to let the fear of what might happen limit their freedom for the simple reason that I don't believe they are in any more danger than when you or I were kids. I would suggest  that they're in more danger locked in their rooms connecting to Facebook and Bebo and exposed to the Paedophile's new weapon of choice, the internet than they are playing over the local fields.

I don't think that the peadophile population has risen, I just think that we have a heightened awareness of their presence. Much like rape, The increase in reported incidents of child abuse/molestation is a good thing. People are more likely to believe that you have been the victim of such a crime and there is far less of a stigma attached to being the victim of such a crime. We're catching and convicting more of the fuckers.

As for the death penalty, I'm instictively against it, like everyone else, I have first hand experience of the coppers who are happy to lie under oath. I know my opinions would differ if it were my child but I guess that's why the recently bereaved don't get to dictate policy.

My sons ex-girlfriend threw herself in front of a train last week due to facebook bullying.  There is some truth in what you say.  15 years old.  Crying shame.

Eating tofu and hating it.

Share

Re: At last some good news

uppercut wrote:

The "nodding cunts" is a tad strong isn't it?
People have their opinions and surely should be free to express them.

Is it? Yes, people have opinions and were freely expressing them rationally with one exception. Despite disagreement, it was good. Then, it was inferred that those of us who were perceived to not have children didn't know what we were talking about, our view wasn't as valid and this was concurred upon. I'm not going to fall out with anyone over it, it didn't bother me. It just made it a discussion I no long wanted to participate in. As you were.

Last edited by Mol (Thu 24 Feb 2011 1:06 pm)

He spent all night staring down at the lights of LS. Wondering if he could ever go home.

Re: At last some good news

Mol wrote:
uppercut wrote:

The "nodding cunts" is a tad strong isn't it?
People have their opinions and surely should be free to express them.

Is it? Yes, people have opinions and were freely expressing them rationally with one exception. Despite disagreement, it was good. Then, it was inferred that those of us who were perceived to not have children didn't know what we were talking about, our view wasn't as valid and this was concurred upon. I'm not going to fall out with anyone over it, it didn't bother me. It just made it a discussion I no long wanted to participate in. As you were.

But you do have a child so it wasn't aimed at you anyway, not that I agree with the comment anyway.  I would say that those with children just have emotions that are more personally based and you will always connect such events with how you feel about your own, I think that's natural and valid.  They always ask the RSPCA for comment on animal cruelty cases, they don't bring in the chair of the local chess club.

"nodding cunts" inferred plural and all who had the opposing view.  Probably just a poor choice of words though I suspect.

I'd offer you a beer, but I've only got six cans.

Share

Re: At last some good news

Reggie Perrin wrote:
Mol wrote:
uppercut wrote:

The "nodding cunts" is a tad strong isn't it?
People have their opinions and surely should be free to express them.

Is it? Yes, people have opinions and were freely expressing them rationally with one exception. Despite disagreement, it was good. Then, it was inferred that those of us who were perceived to not have children didn't know what we were talking about, our view wasn't as valid and this was concurred upon. I'm not going to fall out with anyone over it, it didn't bother me. It just made it a discussion I no long wanted to participate in. As you were.

But you do have a child so it wasn't aimed at you anyway, not that I agree with the comment anyway.  I would say that those with children just have emotions that are more personally based and you will always connect such events with how you feel about your own, I think that's natural and valid.  They always ask the RSPCA for comment on animal cruelty cases, they don't bring in the chair of the local chess club.

"nodding cunts" inferred plural and all who had the opposing view.  Probably just a poor choice of words though I suspect.

Heat of the moment is all.

He spent all night staring down at the lights of LS. Wondering if he could ever go home.

Re: At last some good news

The Most likely person to kill any child is one of its parents
The Most likely person to sexually abuse a child is one of the family or a friend of the family-

The risk to kids from strangers 'in the park' has not increased in the last 50 years-

The papers are full - of great blokes - who top their kids - cos their wife has left them-

Death sentence for all the above? Or is it just for the Mental Beasts?

living well is the best revenge

Share

Re: At last some good news

seacroft crime wave wrote:

The risk to kids from strangers 'in the park' has not increased in the last 50 years-

Have you got any source to verify that? Because I think you're wrong.

*****************
People say I'm bonkers - just because I've been sectioned under the Mental Health Act of 1983
http://www.feltham-made-me.com

Re: At last some good news

seacroft crime wave wrote:

The Most likely person to kill any child is one of its parents
The Most likely person to sexually abuse a child is one of the family or a friend of the family-

The risk to kids from strangers 'in the park' has not increased in the last 50 years-

The papers are full - of great blokes - who top their kids - cos their wife has left them-

Death sentence for all the above? Or is it just for the Mental Beasts?

Yep, all of them.  Their mechanisms are wrong, they are proved to be capable of the worst things.  I don't know if it's worse now or it's just media attention, it doesn't change the crimes.

I'd offer you a beer, but I've only got six cans.

Share

Re: At last some good news

I mean I know the Moors Murders took place in the early sixties. But I don't know what the stats say.

*****************
People say I'm bonkers - just because I've been sectioned under the Mental Health Act of 1983
http://www.feltham-made-me.com

Re: At last some good news

Postman Not Letterbox wrote:
seacroft crime wave wrote:

The risk to kids from strangers 'in the park' has not increased in the last 50 years-

Have you got any source to verify that? Because I think you're wrong.

Loads of research out there just look-

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life … 689316.ece

Interesting - you want me to provide sources - where as you just tell me i'm wrong!

But ask yourself why everyone knows the names of -  Ian Huntley, Jamie Bulger and Madeleine Mccaan-
Because its rare !

living well is the best revenge

Share

Re: At last some good news

seacroft crime wave wrote:
Postman Not Letterbox wrote:
seacroft crime wave wrote:

The risk to kids from strangers 'in the park' has not increased in the last 50 years-

Have you got any source to verify that? Because I think you're wrong.

Loads of research out there just look-

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life … 689316.ece

Interesting - you want me to provide sources - where as you just tell me i'm wrong!

But ask yourself why everyone knows the names of -  Ian Huntley, Jamie Bulger and Madeleine Mccaan-
Because its rare !

big_smile Because if people deal in the reality the whole hang 'em, flog 'em argument falls apart. Much easier to deal in the emotive.

Share

Re: At last some good news

seacroft crime wave wrote:

Interesting - you want me to provide sources - where as you just tell me i'm wrong!

I said I THINK you're wrong. Read it properly.

*****************
People say I'm bonkers - just because I've been sectioned under the Mental Health Act of 1983
http://www.feltham-made-me.com

Re: At last some good news

Postman Not Letterbox wrote:
seacroft crime wave wrote:

Interesting - you want me to provide sources - where as you just tell me i'm wrong!

I said I THINK you're wrong. Read it properly.

well now you KNOW you're wrong -

living well is the best revenge

Share

Re: At last some good news

The police are more receptive to complaints and more proactive in investigating them, the courts and those who practice in them are far better informed and equipped to deal with cases of this nature (special measures for witnesses etc) and we have an increasingly sophisticated sentencing regime to deal with these people.
Add to that an arguably more 'open' society and an obsessive media and it's no surprise the perception is that such crimes are more prevelant.
Having had to deal with these people the thing that strikes you most is how completely unremarkbale they are. By that I mean, how far removed from the 'bogeyman' image portrayed in the media. They really are the man next door.
From memory, one exception, all have offended against people 'known' to them (whether through family, friends, work etc). I've asked around these last couple of days and the experience seems to be the same for those with decades more experience than I.

Last edited by Travis Bickle (Fri 25 Feb 2011 2:20 pm)

She’s the main man in the office in the city and she treats me like I’m just another lackey, but I can put a tennis racket up against my face and pretend that I am Kendo Nagasaki...

Re: At last some good news

And, no, I'm not a copper!

She’s the main man in the office in the city and she treats me like I’m just another lackey, but I can put a tennis racket up against my face and pretend that I am Kendo Nagasaki...

Re: At last some good news

if I had "had a moment of madness" and killed my own children I would not want to be spared.  I could not live with the guilt once the realisation set in.

I'd offer you a beer, but I've only got six cans.

Share

Re: At last some good news

seacroft crime wave wrote:
Postman Not Letterbox wrote:
seacroft crime wave wrote:

Interesting - you want me to provide sources - where as you just tell me i'm wrong!

I said I THINK you're wrong. Read it properly.

well now you KNOW you're wrong -

I have seen two very good films that have forced me to re-consider my views on capital punishment - an old Birtish film from the 60s called The Boys and Broomfield's excellent documentary of Aileen Mournos.

I am left-wing in nearly everything apart from this issue. It's, as has been noted elsewhere, an emotive reaction. My reaction is admitedly totally emotive.

So I was interested in some facts, because like most people on here, I have other things to do and don't have the time to thoroughly research this. The link to the Times article was gratefully received and I read it with interest.

But one thing that prevents me from changing my mind on the death penalty - is the know-it-all smugness of the let-them-live brigade.

*****************
People say I'm bonkers - just because I've been sectioned under the Mental Health Act of 1983
http://www.feltham-made-me.com

Re: At last some good news

I've always wanted to be in a brigade.  big_smile

He spent all night staring down at the lights of LS. Wondering if he could ever go home.

Re: At last some good news

Mol wrote:

I've always wanted to be in a brigade.  big_smile

Apparently we're in the 'Not Angry Enough Brigade'

She’s the main man in the office in the city and she treats me like I’m just another lackey, but I can put a tennis racket up against my face and pretend that I am Kendo Nagasaki...

Re: At last some good news

Postman Not Letterbox wrote:

But one thing that prevents me from changing my mind on the death penalty - is the know-it-all smugness of the let-them-live brigade.

I'm a smug know it all - Hang em and Flog Brigade Member-
So feel free to switch your sincerely deeply held views by 180 degrees-

living well is the best revenge

Share

Re: At last some good news

Travis Bickle wrote:

The police are more receptive to complaints and more proactive in investigating them, the courts and those who practice in them are far better informed and equipped to deal with cases of this nature (special measures for witnesses etc) and we have an increasingly sophisticated sentencing regime to deal with these people.
Add to that an arguably more 'open' society and an obsessive media and it's no surprise the perception is that such crimes are more prevelant.
Having had to deal with these people the thing that strikes you most is how completely unremarkbale they are. By that I mean, how far removed from the 'bogeyman' image portrayed in the media. They really are the man next door.
From memory, one exception, all have offended against people 'known' to them (whether through family, friends, work etc). I've asked around these last couple of days and the experience seems to be the same for those with decades more experience than I.

Precisely the point I made in my earlier post.

As perverse as it might sound, the increae in reported cases of abuse is a good thing. All that it means is that the victims a know that their complaints will be taken more seriously and that the police are more likely to act as a result.

Share

Re: At last some good news

Travis Bickle wrote:
Mol wrote:

I've always wanted to be in a brigade.  big_smile

Apparently we're in the 'Not Angry Enough Brigade'

Now that IS smug. You should be angry at the hypocrisy you're part of  - the whole legal system - that has about as much interest in justice or rehabilitation as Grayson has in a holding midfielder.

A big part of why this whole area is so divisive and emotive is that complete lack of any faith on both sides of the argument, in the ability of the justice system to deal with any of this.

Share

Re: At last some good news

Death sentence for all the above?  No problem with that. Surely been a relative and killing a kid makes it worse? Maybe I'm missing something?

Share