Re: Scotland - Put up or shut up

Ah Prebble, the great communist historical novelist. Little basis in fact as it happens. The highland clearances were largely perpetrated by moneyed Scots against the peasant population, whether gaelic or english speaking. The English were not really much to do with it. Just like those great myths of rebellion, where it was largely Scot against Scot, albanach against sassenach, highlander against lowlander, money against skint, Titles against nobodies.

Historical novels - that most dangerous of arts. Fairy stories dressed up as fact. You might as well start quoting Robert Graves, Gore Vidal or James Michener. And Salmond is just another. Without the novel yet. But I'm sure it'll come.

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Re: Scotland - Put up or shut up

Novelist?

A lot of the land from which the tenants were driven was bought and sold in London. It's likely that the Scots involved were perceived as pissing in the same pot as the absentee English landowners.

Did Culloden actually happen?

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Re: Scotland - Put up or shut up

Djpekingman wrote:

Ah Prebble, the great communist historical novelist. Little basis in fact as it happens.

Even, of all people, the World Socialist Web Site agrees with you there...

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2001/03/preb-m21.html

32

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Re: Scotland - Put up or shut up

...and if you read far enough, (I remember seeing this piece not long after it first came out) even this admits Prebble was "essentially correct"

"We are The Fall"

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Re: Scotland - Put up or shut up

I'm still weighing things up re independence... but

albert herbert hawkins wrote:

... if somebody keeps telling you what a cunt you are for forty years whilst you are subsidising them, then at some point you'd best be prepared for them to turn round and tell you to fuck off.

Do you really believe this?

Also, Scotland isn't being to Fuck Off though, great expense is being spent to persuade Scotland to remain in the UK.  I'd have thought that if the rest of the UK really did subsidise Scotland then the rest of the UK would be pleased to see the back of Scotland.

Last edited by Mr Drew Busby Esq. (Tue 25 Feb 2014 9:49 pm)

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Re: Scotland - Put up or shut up

Culloden - a battle between an organised bunch of merceneries (English Scottish Ulster German) against a disorganised bunch of merceneries (English, Scottish, Irish, French). Money, as so often in scottish history was the overriding factor. And the great scottish lairds (Sutherland, Malcolm, Ross, Macleod, MacDonell to name but a few) clearing and trading land in London prolonged that tradition. Don't forget that clearances weren't unique to the highlands - it had already happened in England during the 'agricultural revolution' - peasants being cleared from land they farmed by the rich and powerful. Let's not mythologise about the scots getting it any differently to anybody else. Money was the key. Always had been, always will be.

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Re: Scotland - Put up or shut up

I have no idea what went on in Scotland all those years ago but the historical truth isn't important in the context of Scottish resentment if there is a perceived injustice that has festered over the centuries.

Again with land clearance, in England i'm guessing it was peasants moved off common land that no one claimed to own, did it happen like this in Scotland or did the displaced feel a different and greater sense of loss.

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Re: Scotland - Put up or shut up

I thought London was playing a reasonable hand in keeping relatively quiet until recently. As soon as the polls showed that Salmond had a nailed-on 40% of the vote, they started shitting it. A good hop-skip-jump and the lad is over the line. I am not sure the threats re; currency are helpful at all. Your stubborn highlander is going to say FO to London and vote the other way with those sort of threats. I understand the need for frank talking and that reality must be pointed out, but anything that comes out of London will be treated with suspicion, literally anything. Can’t say I entirely blame them.

I think Salmond is a twat personally, the guy is an economist so must know he is chancing his arm with his numbers. For many reasons, I think it will fail this time (just), but will happen eventually. Seven steps from a ridiculous idea to become reality, they are at about stage 4 apparently.

Last edited by Mitaman (Wed 26 Feb 2014 3:26 am)

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Re: Scotland - Put up or shut up

Mr Drew Busby Esq. wrote:

I'm still weighing things up re independence... but

albert herbert hawkins wrote:

... if somebody keeps telling you what a cunt you are for forty years whilst you are subsidising them, then at some point you'd best be prepared for them to turn round and tell you to fuck off.

Do you really believe this?

Also, Scotland isn't being to Fuck Off though, great expense is being spent to persuade Scotland to remain in the UK.  I'd have thought that if the rest of the UK really did subsidise Scotland then the rest of the UK would be pleased to see the back of Scotland.


Yes I do.

and

They bloody well would be if I were in the cabinet.

Last edited by albert herbert hawkins (Wed 26 Feb 2014 7:46 am)

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Re: Scotland - Put up or shut up

Mitaman wrote:

I thought London was playing a reasonable hand in keeping relatively quiet until recently. As soon as the polls showed that Salmond had a nailed-on 40% of the vote, they started shitting it. A good hop-skip-jump and the lad is over the line. I am not sure the threats re; currency are helpful at all. Your stubborn highlander is going to say FO to London and vote the other way with those sort of threats. I understand the need for frank talking and that reality must be pointed out, but anything that comes out of London will be treated with suspicion, literally anything. Can’t say I entirely blame them.

I think Salmond is a twat personally, the guy is an economist so must know he is chancing his arm with his numbers. For many reasons, I think it will fail this time (just), but will happen eventually. Seven steps from a ridiculous idea to become reality, they are at about stage 4 apparently.

Hooray, Go Scotland go. Go proudly! Run towards the light.

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Re: Scotland - Put up or shut up

The thing we should point out to Scotland is what a great future they can look forward to under English leadership.

We should point out all the advances made in say the last 20 years, all the improvements.

In reality they are  fucked if they stay part of the UK (see any of Gore's  489 "we are all going to die" posts), some of you are suggesting they are fucked if they leave the Uk. If I was scottish i'd rather it was my own shit that hit the fan than London's.

Their biggest mistake was not leaving decades ago.

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Re: Scotland - Put up or shut up

Foxy Dread wrote:

The thing we should point out to Scotland is what a great future they can look forward to under English leadership.

We should point out all the advances made in say the last 20 years, all the improvements.

In reality they are  fucked if they stay part of the UK (see any of Gore's  489 "we are all going to die" posts), some of you are suggesting they are fucked if they leave the Uk. If I was scottish i'd rather it was my own shit that hit the fan than London's.

Their biggest mistake was not leaving decades ago.

I agree. Although I'd argue that Scotland staying in the union, with the over representation of MPs and the Labour bias, along with the Scottish Mafia running things are the biggest reason for the level of debt, fucked up infrastructure and high tax base.

They should have gone a long time ago. They'd have been happier, we'd have been wealthier.

Whats not to like?

"In the end, society is defined not only by what we create, but also by what we refuse to destroy."

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Re: Scotland - Put up or shut up

And yeah, Yawkshire can go with them.

And no, I'm not coming back

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Re: Scotland - Put up or shut up

Foxy Dread wrote:
gore wrote:
Foxy Dread wrote:

The thing we should point out to Scotland is what a great future they can look forward to under English leadership.

We should point out all the advances made in say the last 20 years, all the improvements.

In reality they are  fucked if they stay part of the UK (see any of Gore's  489 "we are all going to die" posts), some of you are suggesting they are fucked if they leave the Uk. If I was scottish i'd rather it was my own shit that hit the fan than London's.

Their biggest mistake was not leaving decades ago.

I agree. Although I'd argue that Scotland staying in the union, with the over representation of MPs and the Labour bias, along with the Scottish Mafia running things are the biggest reason for the level of debt, fucked up infrastructure and high tax base.



They should have gone a long time ago. They'd have been happier, we'd have been wealthier.

Whats not to like?

Which was the last government to lower taxes as a whole, the total tax revenue from all sources?

Last edited by Foxy Dread (Wed 26 Feb 2014 10:00 am)

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Re: Scotland - Put up or shut up

gore wrote:

And yeah, Yawkshire can go with them.

And no, I'm not coming back

Obviously not, your utopia would be London as a city state along the lines of Monaco or similar.

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Re: Scotland - Put up or shut up

The last Thatcher administration.

But look at the Brown years of Chancellor, the massive spend on Health, Education and other public sector bureaucracy - not to mention the off balance sheet PFI stuff - all in a period when the economy was growing through a big asset bubble and massive growth in consumer debt (which made everyone feel richer, until the music stops).

That stuff takes 10 years to run off, hence why debt grows and the bubble burst

Look at the fact that when you shout about bank bailouts  - RBS and HBOS (which took down Lloyds) were both run by Scots and bailed out by Scots  - who had been ennobled by Scots. The English banks weren't bailed out - Barclays and HSBC.

"In the end, society is defined not only by what we create, but also by what we refuse to destroy."

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Re: Scotland - Put up or shut up

Foxy Dread wrote:
gore wrote:

And yeah, Yawkshire can go with them.

And no, I'm not coming back

Obviously not, your utopia would be London as a city state along the lines of Monaco or similar.

No, just bored with bitter Yorkies blaming other for their own ills. Leeds aside of course. big_smile

"In the end, society is defined not only by what we create, but also by what we refuse to destroy."

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Re: Scotland - Put up or shut up

Are you counting indirect taxation when you state that about the Thatcher government?

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Re: Scotland - Put up or shut up

gore wrote:

The last Thatcher administration.

But look at the Brown years of Chancellor, the massive spend on Health, Education and other public sector bureaucracy - not to mention the off balance sheet PFI stuff - all in a period when the economy was growing through a big asset bubble and massive growth in consumer debt (which made everyone feel richer, until the music stops).

That stuff takes 10 years to run off, hence why debt grows and the bubble burst

Look at the fact that when you shout about bank bailouts  - RBS and HBOS (which took down Lloyds) were both run by Scots and bailed out by Scots  - who had been ennobled by Scots. The English banks weren't bailed out - Barclays and HSBC.

Are you sure? Whose money did they use to bail them out then?

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Re: Scotland - Put up or shut up

Yep. From what I remember.

I am amazed so many of your persuasion hate Blair - One of the most redistributionist govts for a long time. Well, apart from his really wealthy mates, who paid a lot less. Same with Brown.  For some reason, really liked the very wealthy and the benefit client state - fucked over the aspiring and them trying to make a few quid who paid all the taxes.

Probably why they are both tax exiles, rather run offshore companies. And both Scots. big_smile

"In the end, society is defined not only by what we create, but also by what we refuse to destroy."

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Re: Scotland - Put up or shut up

How did HBOS take down Lloyds?

They made Lloyds buy them? Or did someone at Lloyds fuck up in buying them?

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Re: Scotland - Put up or shut up

gore wrote:

Yep. From what I remember.

I am amazed so many of your persuasion hate Blair - One of the most redistributionist govts for a long time. Well, apart from his really wealthy mates, who paid a lot less. Same with Brown.  For some reason, really liked the very wealthy and the benefit client state - fucked over the aspiring and them trying to make a few quid who paid all the taxes.

Probably why they are both tax exiles, rather run offshore companies. And both Scots. big_smile

Blair's as scottish as you are yorkshire.

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Re: Scotland - Put up or shut up

Djpekingman wrote:
gore wrote:

The last Thatcher administration.

But look at the Brown years of Chancellor, the massive spend on Health, Education and other public sector bureaucracy - not to mention the off balance sheet PFI stuff - all in a period when the economy was growing through a big asset bubble and massive growth in consumer debt (which made everyone feel richer, until the music stops).

That stuff takes 10 years to run off, hence why debt grows and the bubble burst

Look at the fact that when you shout about bank bailouts  - RBS and HBOS (which took down Lloyds) were both run by Scots and bailed out by Scots  - who had been ennobled by Scots. The English banks weren't bailed out - Barclays and HSBC.

Are you sure? Whose money did they use to bail them out then?

Brown and Darling were scottish last time I checked. And they used peoples money they borrowed = mostly China. lol, just with the taxpayers guarantee. UK tax payers - so thats 55m English/Welsh and 5m sweaties.

Nice bit of business for them if they fuck off.

"In the end, society is defined not only by what we create, but also by what we refuse to destroy."

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Re: Scotland - Put up or shut up

Foxy Dread wrote:
gore wrote:

Yep. From what I remember.

I am amazed so many of your persuasion hate Blair - One of the most redistributionist govts for a long time. Well, apart from his really wealthy mates, who paid a lot less. Same with Brown.  For some reason, really liked the very wealthy and the benefit client state - fucked over the aspiring and them trying to make a few quid who paid all the taxes.

Probably why they are both tax exiles, rather run offshore companies. And both Scots. big_smile

Blair's as scottish as you are yorkshire.

I'm Leeds and was born there. Blair was born up there, was educated up there and his family lived up there. The fact he has his accent changed is just one of them things.

He's a Scot and was part of the John Smith mafia

"In the end, society is defined not only by what we create, but also by what we refuse to destroy."

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Re: Scotland - Put up or shut up

Foxy Dread wrote:

How did HBOS take down Lloyds?

They made Lloyds buy them? Or did someone at Lloyds fuck up in buying them?

Brown and Darling went to the chairman and the CEO of LLoyds at the time and made them an offer he couldn't refuse. They begged him as HBOS was insolvent at that point. They offered all sorts of sweeteners and threats if they didn't.

At the point, Lloyds total exposure to the whole Lehmans thing was £300m. That is a fact.

so they went ahead, then found they'd been lied to and then the sweeteners disappeared.  Which is why the CEO and chairman got wasted not long after.

"In the end, society is defined not only by what we create, but also by what we refuse to destroy."

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