Re: Should we stay or should we go?

Not a myth. Unless britain can stay in the EU single market zone anything britain exports to the EU will be tariffed. Just like stuff from outside europe is currently. Which is why the japs make cars in europe or specifically britain. They will move production to eastern europe where labour is cheaper and they don't have the issue of tarriffs. Britain taxing imports will just make stuff more expensive for brits. A minimum wage of 9.10 in the UK by 2020 will not go far in the UK if rental costs keep rising like they have - buy to lets have just been stampdutied - someone has to pay for that and it won't be the landlords. If Brexit happens 9.10 will not be worth anything as all prices will rise. More to the point, it looks increasingly likley that brexit will not stop freedom of movement as the brexiteers realise without foreign labour there will be no one to do the work they do now. It will almost certainly be a condition of staying in the single market, that freedom of movement is retained.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

Djpekingman wrote:

Not a myth. Unless britain can stay in the EU single market zone anything britain exports to the EU will be tariffed. Just like stuff from outside europe is currently. Which is why the japs make cars in europe or specifically britain. They will move production to eastern europe where labour is cheaper and they don't have the issue of tarriffs. Britain taxing imports will just make stuff more expensive for brits. A minimum wage of 9.10 in the UK by 2020 will not go far in the UK if rental costs keep rising like they have - buy to lets have just been stampdutied - someone has to pay for that and it won't be the landlords. If Brexit happens 9.10 will not be worth anything as all prices will rise. More to the point, it looks increasingly likley that brexit will not stop freedom of movement as the brexiteers realise without foreign labour there will be no one to do the work they do now. It will almost certainly be a condition of staying in the single market, that freedom of movement is retained.

Can you point at where this is wrtten?  Or at least explain why this would be logical?  Are all European car makers going to write off Britain as a market and leave us to the Japanese and Americans?  Do Porsche, BMW and Mercedes really want Britain to tarrif their cars back?  It's not making sense to me.  Sorry.

Do the French farmers really want to stop flooding our markets with cheap subsidized goods?  Because if they tax us we will tax them the same.  All it would do is make our own farmers profitable again.  I can deal with that.  I doubt if the French can. 

Punitive tarrifs are not a given and don't m,ake sense for either party.  If you think differently then please explain why.  Not just say it will be so.

Leeds United:  Boiling Barnsley's piss since 2018.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

This country has been attracting economic migrants for fucking centuries. I'd hazard a guess that the vast majority of us that post on here are from 'foreign' stock if you go back 2 or 3 generations.
An increased population places a burden on public services. But a tax-paying workforce helps fund them. I wish the Brexit 'Johnny Foreigner' scaremongers would direct just a bit of their angst at the bent taxation system that means that 'ordinary' workers, irrespective of where they were born, pay their way whilst those at the top pay fuck all.
Know your real enemy....

Last edited by Travis Bickle (Sun 29 May 2016 2:51 pm)

She’s the main man in the office in the city and she treats me like I’m just another lackey, but I can put a tennis racket up against my face and pretend that I am Kendo Nagasaki...

Re: Should we stay or should we go?

Britain exports nearly 50 % of its produce to the EU. EU exports about 10% of its produce to the UK. Who is more dependent on who? Not complicated as to who'll be more fucked up.

The EU, while nice to have 'em, will do ok without the UK. The UK on the other hand, on losing priviliged access to its biggest market might find a few issues. Especially as a lot of what 'britain' exports is not even owned by the british.

Trav is right - know your real enemy - the tax dodgers and the little englanders. Isolationism and sectarianism has never succeeded.  What I can see, is that the brexit heartland are complaining mostly about pakistanis and indians. For those who didn't pay attention in history and geography lessons india and pakistan have never been part of europe - it is part of the little england colonial legacy.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

Congratulations on typing so much without answering my question.    Which was...

WHY WOULD THE EU IMPOSE PUNITIVE EXPORT TARRIFS?

All you did was repeat your dogma that they will without expressing any opinion as to why you think they will.

Leeds United:  Boiling Barnsley's piss since 2018.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

I make widgets in Italy. I export predominantly to Europe. My biggest competitor has always been UK Widget. Then their government left the EU. UK Widget are still trying to outdo me in Spain where we were making headway. Apparently the UK government were suggesting that, even though they left the party and ain't chipping in anymore, it's business as usual when it comes to selling in Spain.
Not content with being market leader in their own country, they're trying to do me with my friends and neighbours.....Fuck 'em. Tarriffs. And extra checks at customs, unofficial of course. And all those containers that get 'lost' in local ports......

She’s the main man in the office in the city and she treats me like I’m just another lackey, but I can put a tennis racket up against my face and pretend that I am Kendo Nagasaki...

Re: Should we stay or should we go?

Because the EU's primary interest will be the protection of its own members, just as it is today. If you decide to leave the club they have no god given obligation to look after someone who has decided they don't want to be part of the club. Why would they make it easy when you've taken their other members jobs in the past with 'favourable' tax regimes and lax labour laws? Nope, the EU will be after protecting its member's interests, and tarriffs will be just a small part of that.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

I think you have mistaken the ongoing arguement that is actual Europe for some sort of Socialist Narnia and spewed out some made up situations.

Germany sells more manufactured shit to Britain than Britain does to German.  Is the German EU delegation going to vote for tarrifs between Germany and the UK?  No.  there is absolutely no reason to do is in any reality you care to inhabit.

The French flood our market with produce.  More than we sell to France.  Do the French vote for tarrifs which will cut off their own noses to spite their faces?  No.  There is no reason to in any reality you care to inhabit.  It makes no sense to anyone other than scared little girl hiding behind the sofa from the ghost of Thatcher who will be summoned should we leave the EU.

Likewise the economic power houses of Spain or Greece?  Like they really don't want our fucking money by the bucket.

Now I say it one more time...  Apart from the highly volatile market of fictitious widgets.  Why would any country in the EU want to tarrif itself out of business with the UK?

You have given a made up situation with a single product you have pulled out of your arse.  Why would a country fuck up everything for one product or one type of product?  Your arguements do not make sense in the real world.

Tarrifs are something a major power block does when it is being hurt by another major power block.  The EU does not as a matter of course tarrif people punitively.  So why would they do it to the UK?

Leeds United:  Boiling Barnsley's piss since 2018.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

Djpekingman wrote:

Because the EU's primary interest will be the protection of its own members, just as it is today. If you decide to leave the club they have no god given obligation to look after someone who has decided they don't want to be part of the club. Why would they make it easy when you've taken their other members jobs in the past with 'favourable' tax regimes and lax labour laws? Nope, the EU will be after protecting its member's interests, and tarriffs will be just a small part of that.

If your arguement haolds water then we already have punitive trtade tarrifs for everywhere expect the EU.  Sorry.  That's not how world trade works.  Only in scare stories.

Leeds United:  Boiling Barnsley's piss since 2018.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

space wrote:
Djpekingman wrote:

Because the EU's primary interest will be the protection of its own members, just as it is today. If you decide to leave the club they have no god given obligation to look after someone who has decided they don't want to be part of the club. Why would they make it easy when you've taken their other members jobs in the past with 'favourable' tax regimes and lax labour laws? Nope, the EU will be after protecting its member's interests, and tarriffs will be just a small part of that.

If your arguement haolds water then we already have punitive trtade tarrifs for everywhere expect the EU.  Sorry.  That's not how world trade works.  Only in scare stories.

Again not true - the WTO is there to make trade agreements between nations and remove tarrifs. I draw your attention to page 75 for starters https://www.wto.org/english/res_e/books … es15_e.pdf. There are no tarrifs within the EU. Any trading partner outwith the EU is subject to tarrifs. Britain will be outside the EU therefore subject to tarrifs with everything it exports to the EU. It is up to britain whether they want to retaliate, so no doubt we'll be back to the pre EU trade wars time - remember EFTA? There is no advantage in leaving the EU in this area and every advantage in staying in. Do you really think the EU will be pleasant about this? Do you really think that the multinationals that export the majority of their shit from britain to europe will not move their manufacturing bases to europe where there are no tariffs?

The whole base of the TTIP negotiations has been to reduce or remove tarrifs between the EU and the North american trade organisations.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

Is it not within our wit to fuck multinational also and make our own products and buy the instead? 

I am still undecided but I think it's almost giving up on democracy and giving in to globalisation.

I'd offer you a beer, but I've only got six cans.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

By Elaine Smith

I will be voting to leave the EU in the upcoming Referendum. I believe that whatever way people vote they should be aware of the true nature of the EU.  As the late Tony Benn said: ‘When I saw how the EU was developing, it was very obvious what they had in mind was not democratic.” He went on to say “…. I am in favour of democracy.”

Below is the text of the speech I gave in the Scottish Parliament this morning.

“I’ve been listening to the wider EU debate and one of the worst aspects is the extent to which the debate has been dominated by the right and often with racist undertones.

So it’s important that a legitimate left wing case for leaving is voiced in the debate.

The key argument of the official stay campaign seems to be that things can only get worse if we leave, ignoring of course the role that the EU has played in intensifying austerity and reactionary politics across the EU.

Of course, many of my Labour colleagues are enthusiastic staying in, as outlined by Kezia Dugdale.

But from a left perspective there’s a need to assess what the EU is and based on that, what route is most likely to offer the best prospects to make progress for the working class and employment rights.

Personally I’m not convinced that it is as part of an undemocratic super state with mass unemployment, falling living standards and growing inequality.  Look to the Greek tragedy and 50% youth unemployment in Spain.

There are undoubtedly many on the left who are intending to hold their noses and vote to remain in the hope that reforms will come. I understand that.

But with an unelected bureaucracy at its core and a largely decorative parliament I think that avoids the reality that the EU structures are closely bound to capitalism.

The original title of the EU, the common market, told socialists then that it was essentially capitalist and designed to reverse the socialist advances made in Western Europe after WW2.

Those advances were built on public ownership of key utilities and industries, the creation of welfare states, redistributive taxation and management by the state of the economy to ensure full employment.

Of course, Britain was originally locked out of the EEC club by a French vetoes because they believed, correctly, that it would use its influence to advance the interests of US capital.

The interests of workers, by contrast, are important only in so far as their consent, or at least the absence of organised opposition, can be achieved.

At this point someone usually mentions the social chapter of the Maastricht Treaty.

However, the treaty was introduced to develop the single market and monetary union with the social chapter being included as it was recognised that increased labour movement resistance to worsening economic conditions could de-rail the EU project.

In Britain, equality, health and safety laws, the working time directive and a range of other benefits included in the social chapter seemed very attractive due to the aggressive market led capitalist approach of Tory governments.

But, it is important to note the limited nature of the social chapter: key areas in relation to the class struggle - like pay an the right to strike - were not included.

It is the non-EU-based European Court of Human Rights, the ECHR, that has occasionally delivered progressive judgements in these areas.  By contrast the EU Court of Justice has directly limited trade union rights.

The reality is that most of the key rights we still enjoy stem not from the EU but from struggles undertaken collectively by trade unions in this country; for example, paid holidays and equal pay.

The EU has provided some individual (as opposed to collective) rights. It legislated for TUPE – but only to limit resistance to EU-imposed privatisation and competitive tendering.

Individual rights for agency workers were introduced to mitigate the effects of casualization which the EU itself helped create.

The EU works on the basis of the primacy of the market and collective labour organisation is seen as an impediment to effective markets.

We have seen endless pro-business directives: ending public ownership of basic services like rail and utilities, introducing compulsory competitive tendering in the public sector and allowing companies to pay workers from other states at rates lower than the locally agreed rates.

This agenda has impacted directly on Scotland.

The Scottish government claims that it was the EU that enforced the retendering of CalMac with the threat of privatisation. This is one of the reasons the RMT union are keen for their members to Vote Leave.

Currently both CETA and TTIP are being negotiated by the unelected commission behind closed doors and if agreed will huge threat to our public services in Scotland.  These treaties are a corporate power grab that will undermine our democracy and give business a right to sue governments.

The EU is not Europe: it’s a political construct imposed on the people of Europe to undermine democratic national governments.

It seek the effective elimination of any genuine elective democracy and that runs contrary to the true definition of internationalism.

Since its foundation the EU has had a clear direction of travel, opening up public services to privatisation, eroding collective bargaining and centralising power.

Unfortunately not enough of the debate – on either side – has addressed these fundamental points.

Voting to remain will inevitably allow this agenda to continue in the face of minimum opposition and with little real hope of reform.

Voting leave could help to reassert the power of working people over that of big business. Politically, that would be most likely if we elect a Labour Government in 2020.

Personally, for those reasons I intend to vote leave.”

I'd offer you a beer, but I've only got six cans.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

space wrote:

I think you have mistaken the ongoing arguement that is actual Europe for some sort of Socialist Narnia and spewed out some made up situations.

Germany sells more manufactured shit to Britain than Britain does to German.  Is the German EU delegation going to vote for tarrifs between Germany and the UK?  No.  there is absolutely no reason to do is in any reality you care to inhabit.

The French flood our market with produce.  More than we sell to France.  Do the French vote for tarrifs which will cut off their own noses to spite their faces?  No.  There is no reason to in any reality you care to inhabit.  It makes no sense to anyone other than scared little girl hiding behind the sofa from the ghost of Thatcher who will be summoned should we leave the EU.

Likewise the economic power houses of Spain or Greece?  Like they really don't want our fucking money by the bucket.

Now I say it one more time...  Apart from the highly volatile market of fictitious widgets.  Why would any country in the EU want to tarrif itself out of business with the UK?

You have given a made up situation with a single product you have pulled out of your arse.  Why would a country fuck up everything for one product or one type of product?  Your arguements do not make sense in the real world.

Tarrifs are something a major power block does when it is being hurt by another major power block.  The EU does not as a matter of course tarrif people punitively.  So why would they do it to the UK?

Socialist Nirvana? Little girl behind the sofa? Ghost of Thatcher? Fuck me, it's Paul Nuttall.
I don't see the EU allowing us to enjoy all of the benefits of the single market and, in particular, the absence of tariffs, customs controls and the like, whilst being exempt from regulation and financial contribution. Whether punitive or otherwise, we will not be able to trade with them as freely as we do now. And we will need to think long and fucking hard about taking them on.

She’s the main man in the office in the city and she treats me like I’m just another lackey, but I can put a tennis racket up against my face and pretend that I am Kendo Nagasaki...

Re: Should we stay or should we go?

Travis Bickle wrote:
space wrote:

I think you have mistaken the ongoing arguement that is actual Europe for some sort of Socialist Narnia and spewed out some made up situations.

Germany sells more manufactured shit to Britain than Britain does to German.  Is the German EU delegation going to vote for tarrifs between Germany and the UK?  No.  there is absolutely no reason to do is in any reality you care to inhabit.

The French flood our market with produce.  More than we sell to France.  Do the French vote for tarrifs which will cut off their own noses to spite their faces?  No.  There is no reason to in any reality you care to inhabit.  It makes no sense to anyone other than scared little girl hiding behind the sofa from the ghost of Thatcher who will be summoned should we leave the EU.

Likewise the economic power houses of Spain or Greece?  Like they really don't want our fucking money by the bucket.

Now I say it one more time...  Apart from the highly volatile market of fictitious widgets.  Why would any country in the EU want to tarrif itself out of business with the UK?

You have given a made up situation with a single product you have pulled out of your arse.  Why would a country fuck up everything for one product or one type of product?  Your arguements do not make sense in the real world.

Tarrifs are something a major power block does when it is being hurt by another major power block.  The EU does not as a matter of course tarrif people punitively.  So why would they do it to the UK?

Socialist Nirvana? Little girl behind the sofa? Ghost of Thatcher? Fuck me, it's Paul Nuttall.
I don't see the EU allowing us to enjoy all of the benefits of the single market and, in particular, the absence of tariffs, customs controls and the like, whilst being exempt from regulation and financial contribution. Whether punitive or otherwise, we will not be able to trade with them as freely as we do now. And we will need to think long and fucking hard about taking them on.


And they will be stopping themselves from trading freely with us.  That is the point you seem to overlook.  We are still a big economy.  Other economies will be lining up to agree. 

How much damage did the Chinese have to do dumping subsidised steel and fucking up not just Europes but Americas industries too.  The simple fact is that this fictitious German widget company will be told to fuck itself by the likes of BMW and will do what widget makers have done all through history. They will move widget making to some offshore shithole to cut costs.

I still don;t see why EU manufacturing will let their politicians fuck them up to prove a point. 

It's scaremongering and makes no logical sense.

Leeds United:  Boiling Barnsley's piss since 2018.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

Djpekingman wrote:

Britain exports nearly 50 % of its produce to the EU. EU exports about 10% of its produce to the UK. Who is more dependent on who? Not complicated as to who'll be more fucked up.

The EU, while nice to have 'em, will do ok without the UK. The UK on the other hand, on losing priviliged access to its biggest market might find a few issues. Especially as a lot of what 'britain' exports is not even owned by the british.

Trav is right - know your real enemy - the tax dodgers and the little englanders. Isolationism and sectarianism has never succeeded.  What I can see, is that the brexit heartland are complaining mostly about pakistanis and indians. For those who didn't pay attention in history and geography lessons india and pakistan have never been part of europe - it is part of the little england colonial legacy.

Herein lies the major underlying concern, that a UK exit is simply the first domino to fall in Europe and the IMF, the US and EU commission are getting increasingly nervous. That said, it is not going to happen, the UK will vote roughly the same as Scotland did, 55:45 to stay. GBP will regain about 8% - 12%, best guess and everybody lives happily ever after...

'When you become a grown up, people stop asking you what your favourite dinosaur is....They don't even care.'

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

Yes it's all hot air there has never been a chance of England voting to leave, economic scare stories win elections, always have done, probably always will do.

I have put my money where my mouth is, back in January I told a few mates that 1.44 to stay was like finding money. It's now down to 1.2.

Personally, adding my own hot air, if I was going to vote, I'd vote to leave, just for the hope of change through chaos. It's key for the Isle of Man that it's a stay vote so i'm happy that stay will win.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

Reggie Perrin wrote:

By Elaine Smith

I will be voting to leave the EU in the upcoming Referendum. I believe that whatever way people vote they should be aware of the true nature of the EU.  As the late Tony Benn said: ‘When I saw how the EU was developing, it was very obvious what they had in mind was not democratic.” He went on to say “…. I am in favour of democracy.”

Below is the text of the speech I gave in the Scottish Parliament this morning.

“I’ve been listening to the wider EU debate and one of the worst aspects is the extent to which the debate has been dominated by the right and often with racist undertones.

So it’s important that a legitimate left wing case for leaving is voiced in the debate.

The key argument of the official stay campaign seems to be that things can only get worse if we leave, ignoring of course the role that the EU has played in intensifying austerity and reactionary politics across the EU.

Of course, many of my Labour colleagues are enthusiastic staying in, as outlined by Kezia Dugdale.

But from a left perspective there’s a need to assess what the EU is and based on that, what route is most likely to offer the best prospects to make progress for the working class and employment rights.

Personally I’m not convinced that it is as part of an undemocratic super state with mass unemployment, falling living standards and growing inequality.  Look to the Greek tragedy and 50% youth unemployment in Spain.

There are undoubtedly many on the left who are intending to hold their noses and vote to remain in the hope that reforms will come. I understand that.

But with an unelected bureaucracy at its core and a largely decorative parliament I think that avoids the reality that the EU structures are closely bound to capitalism.

The original title of the EU, the common market, told socialists then that it was essentially capitalist and designed to reverse the socialist advances made in Western Europe after WW2.

Those advances were built on public ownership of key utilities and industries, the creation of welfare states, redistributive taxation and management by the state of the economy to ensure full employment.

Of course, Britain was originally locked out of the EEC club by a French vetoes because they believed, correctly, that it would use its influence to advance the interests of US capital.

The interests of workers, by contrast, are important only in so far as their consent, or at least the absence of organised opposition, can be achieved.

At this point someone usually mentions the social chapter of the Maastricht Treaty.

However, the treaty was introduced to develop the single market and monetary union with the social chapter being included as it was recognised that increased labour movement resistance to worsening economic conditions could de-rail the EU project.

In Britain, equality, health and safety laws, the working time directive and a range of other benefits included in the social chapter seemed very attractive due to the aggressive market led capitalist approach of Tory governments.

But, it is important to note the limited nature of the social chapter: key areas in relation to the class struggle - like pay an the right to strike - were not included.

It is the non-EU-based European Court of Human Rights, the ECHR, that has occasionally delivered progressive judgements in these areas.  By contrast the EU Court of Justice has directly limited trade union rights.

The reality is that most of the key rights we still enjoy stem not from the EU but from struggles undertaken collectively by trade unions in this country; for example, paid holidays and equal pay.

The EU has provided some individual (as opposed to collective) rights. It legislated for TUPE – but only to limit resistance to EU-imposed privatisation and competitive tendering.

Individual rights for agency workers were introduced to mitigate the effects of casualization which the EU itself helped create.

The EU works on the basis of the primacy of the market and collective labour organisation is seen as an impediment to effective markets.

We have seen endless pro-business directives: ending public ownership of basic services like rail and utilities, introducing compulsory competitive tendering in the public sector and allowing companies to pay workers from other states at rates lower than the locally agreed rates.

This agenda has impacted directly on Scotland.

The Scottish government claims that it was the EU that enforced the retendering of CalMac with the threat of privatisation. This is one of the reasons the RMT union are keen for their members to Vote Leave.

Currently both CETA and TTIP are being negotiated by the unelected commission behind closed doors and if agreed will huge threat to our public services in Scotland.  These treaties are a corporate power grab that will undermine our democracy and give business a right to sue governments.

The EU is not Europe: it’s a political construct imposed on the people of Europe to undermine democratic national governments.

It seek the effective elimination of any genuine elective democracy and that runs contrary to the true definition of internationalism.

Since its foundation the EU has had a clear direction of travel, opening up public services to privatisation, eroding collective bargaining and centralising power.

Unfortunately not enough of the debate – on either side – has addressed these fundamental points.

Voting to remain will inevitably allow this agenda to continue in the face of minimum opposition and with little real hope of reform.

Voting leave could help to reassert the power of working people over that of big business. Politically, that would be most likely if we elect a Labour Government in 2020.

Personally, for those reasons I intend to vote leave.”

The european commission and its attendant negotiating teams is no more unelected than for example, the british parliament. Elected MEPs and elected national governments nominate commissioners, just like they do ministers i their own national governments. To say thats its an unelected body is shameful when every 'democratic' political organisation I can think of does just the same.

If the EU has limited trade union rights this is almost certainly at the behest of thatcher when she was 'renegotiating' with the EU. The european market is freer than its ever been. Isolationism and sectarianism jeopardises that. It will be the little man on the outside that suffer most.

This woman realy does write some shite. unemployment in Spain and greece was not caused by the EU, it was caused by banking and insuffciently regulated markets, initially in the US - to say otherwise is not scaremongering, its downright bollocks and shows an amazing lack of grasp of the economic issues that caused the crash in the first place.

To believe that the EU forced privatisation on british (and only british transports and utilities) is also bollocks. Most european countries still have monopolies and national interest in these industries. The tories and balir jumped at any chance they could to privatise anything. Fuck all to do with the EU in practise.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

space wrote:
Travis Bickle wrote:
space wrote:

I think you have mistaken the ongoing arguement that is actual Europe for some sort of Socialist Narnia and spewed out some made up situations.

Germany sells more manufactured shit to Britain than Britain does to German.  Is the German EU delegation going to vote for tarrifs between Germany and the UK?  No.  there is absolutely no reason to do is in any reality you care to inhabit.

The French flood our market with produce.  More than we sell to France.  Do the French vote for tarrifs which will cut off their own noses to spite their faces?  No.  There is no reason to in any reality you care to inhabit.  It makes no sense to anyone other than scared little girl hiding behind the sofa from the ghost of Thatcher who will be summoned should we leave the EU.

Likewise the economic power houses of Spain or Greece?  Like they really don't want our fucking money by the bucket.

Now I say it one more time...  Apart from the highly volatile market of fictitious widgets.  Why would any country in the EU want to tarrif itself out of business with the UK?

You have given a made up situation with a single product you have pulled out of your arse.  Why would a country fuck up everything for one product or one type of product?  Your arguements do not make sense in the real world.

Tarrifs are something a major power block does when it is being hurt by another major power block.  The EU does not as a matter of course tarrif people punitively.  So why would they do it to the UK?

Socialist Nirvana? Little girl behind the sofa? Ghost of Thatcher? Fuck me, it's Paul Nuttall.
I don't see the EU allowing us to enjoy all of the benefits of the single market and, in particular, the absence of tariffs, customs controls and the like, whilst being exempt from regulation and financial contribution. Whether punitive or otherwise, we will not be able to trade with them as freely as we do now. And we will need to think long and fucking hard about taking them on.


And they will be stopping themselves from trading freely with us.  That is the point you seem to overlook.  We are still a big economy.  Other economies will be lining up to agree. 

How much damage did the Chinese have to do dumping subsidised steel and fucking up not just Europes but Americas industries too.  The simple fact is that this fictitious German widget company will be told to fuck itself by the likes of BMW and will do what widget makers have done all through history. They will move widget making to some offshore shithole to cut costs.

I still don;t see why EU manufacturing will let their politicians fuck them up to prove a point. 

It's scaremongering and makes no logical sense.

Why does it make no sense? As I've said before, only 10% of EU trade is with britain. The advantages of the EU is that its a free trade agreement. Britain will no longer have free trade access to that bloc, not without concessions like freedom of movement of labour, which then gives you all the disadvantages without the advantages (like a say or a power of veto in european legislation). There will be massive pressure from eu members not to afford britain priviliged access to a club of which they are no longer part.

The real enemy you should be looking at is Camerson and his conservative party who are pushing for acceptance of TTIP and CETA, both of which will give north american big business much more say in the affairs of britain than the EU ever has.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

Mitaman wrote:
Djpekingman wrote:

Britain exports nearly 50 % of its produce to the EU. EU exports about 10% of its produce to the UK. Who is more dependent on who? Not complicated as to who'll be more fucked up.

The EU, while nice to have 'em, will do ok without the UK. The UK on the other hand, on losing priviliged access to its biggest market might find a few issues. Especially as a lot of what 'britain' exports is not even owned by the british.

Trav is right - know your real enemy - the tax dodgers and the little englanders. Isolationism and sectarianism has never succeeded.  What I can see, is that the brexit heartland are complaining mostly about pakistanis and indians. For those who didn't pay attention in history and geography lessons india and pakistan have never been part of europe - it is part of the little england colonial legacy.

Herein lies the major underlying concern, that a UK exit is simply the first domino to fall in Europe and the IMF, the US and EU commission are getting increasingly nervous. That said, it is not going to happen, the UK will vote roughly the same as Scotland did, 55:45 to stay. GBP will regain about 8% - 12%, best guess and everybody lives happily ever after...


If we do vote brexit then Sweden will be close behind I reckon.

This has got the same feel to it as the last general election when due to voter bullying on social media the Tory voters kept close council and we therefore had the "shock" result.  Add into that voter apathy (75% of people reckon the outcome will be remain?) and it could go either way.

Leeds United:  Boiling Barnsley's piss since 2018.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

One of the things the EU will do to protect its remaining membership is make it very bloody difficult for the UK to leave and make the terms of that exit so severe that no one else wants to leave (another reason for punative tarrifs).

Clause 50 states negotiations must be concluded within 2 years of its invocation. By that time other countries will have seen what a mess its made of the uk economy and be put off from any thoughts of exit. It took 12 years to negotiate a way in. It could take that easily for exit to be finalised - after the two years everything not agreed will be assumed to be exit so WTO rules will apply. I really can't see Exit being anything other than very messy and very painful for the UK. There may be pain in other EU countries but the UK will bear the brunt of it.

Only those who dream will someday see their dreams converted to reality

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

Interesting piece in The Guardian online about how Brexit might pan out. Given the Euroscepticism in other countries they predict, I think accurately, that the EU will have to take a 'robust' line with the UK if only to make it an unattractive option for other countries where there are similar rumblings.
It's all unknown but I can't see it serves the purpose of any organisation, group, call it what you will, to make leaving it an attractive option.

She’s the main man in the office in the city and she treats me like I’m just another lackey, but I can put a tennis racket up against my face and pretend that I am Kendo Nagasaki...

Re: Should we stay or should we go?

What did the EU ever do for us/what did the UK ever do for the EU?

http://euromove.org.uk/wp-content/uploa … ve_WEB.pdf

Myths and fairy stories

http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/eur … a-z-index/

Only those who dream will someday see their dreams converted to reality

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

50million.ukPure bribery, love it

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

Thanks Djpekingman, some good stuff on there.


Personally I think that there is no way we will get as good a trade deal with the EU after we leave as we have now. So leaving will balls up the economy. The other biggie is immigration of course so basically the question is whether controlling immigration is more important than anything else? If you think it is then vote Leave, otherwise vote Remain.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

I've had a change of heart, I think we should stay in Europe, the bits that our ours anyway...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angevin_E … Empire.png

Scotland and most of Wales get their independence, bit sticky with Ireland, The Norman bit of France for us, we can sell it to Merkel by telling her she can have Paris as a holiday resort.

Last edited by albert herbert hawkins (Wed 01 Jun 2016 1:08 pm)

Fascista, Communista, Tory Boy or Labourista, come and view the whole damn vista, om pom push

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