Re: The mighty Lions v some lot in green

Serves the fuckers right for their treatment of Revie.

Never forget.

Share

Re: The mighty Lions v some lot in green

Toronto Ted wrote:

Arsenal at their height had two defensive midfielders in Viera and Petit and played brilliant football

Without wishing to sound like a 'know-it-all', i reckon he was the more attacking box to box midfielder, in an attacking 4-4-2. Admittedly not a scorer of goals, he had pace & strength that could get him around the pitch and past people and his first thought was to go forward. He probably redefined what a top level cm should be built like & be able to do.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/arsenal_henry_pires_bergkamp_ljungberg_vieira.jpg

Henderson was marginally better this last game, and probably benefitted from playing further up the pitch, with the pressure for the pass to be forward or square, as opposed to square or back. I've read somewhere that in both games he had most touches of the ball, which is both a good & bad thing. He's obviously not hiding, but it's he that is setting the tempo & tone of the game. I'm not a big fan of his and i think that he's overall limited, and those limitiations are magnified the higher levels he plays at. I don't see enough of him at liverpool, but understand he does well for them, he's usually at around 80 passes a match at 80% completion rate (roughly same number as de bruyne & silva, but less accurate) in a more expansive team. Saything that, if southgate is deliberately reigning him in for england then it might be contributing to the problem.

I watched the u21's v scotland last week,and the commentator was saying that england were deliberately trying to play the same shape, keep possession and play out from the back at every age level from 17's to full. It was fairly ponderous at times, with england over playing it. They had cook (ex of your parish) and onomah as the midfield 2, and it worked well. The players were obviously technically strong, but seemed to lack spontaneity and game understanding.

I think it goes back to 2010 germany v england when we lost 4-1. We played an unbalanced 4-4-2 against a well drilled german 4-2-3-1, and got outplayed. Since then, i think that the FA has set out to shoehorn in a formation and style of play, being 'competitive' and set their target as no higher than getting into the knock out of competitions.

I read an article on't web, saying that the england team had managed to disconnect itself from the fans, and that was a problem with the fa. It didn't specify the reason for this, whether it was due to under performance or the wealth of elite players, but fans didn't feel an 'association'. But there is an interesting thing going on at the moment. I've mentioned it on here before about france, but having watched england u17 and u21's, it is evident that there is a massive shift in the ethnicity of players currently going on, and this world cup will be the last time that the england team will have a majority of 'white' players. By the time 2022 world cup rolls along, it will have a make up that is markedly different to the majority of its fanbase (match going fanbase). I'm not saying that current criticism/disconnection of/with the national side has any racial element, but it will certainly add a new dynamic. As an aside, france will be in a similar position earlier, probably the 2018 world cup (except for lloris, griezmann & giroud), whilst italy and spain occupy the other end of the spectrum.

I disliked him as a person, but i liked palmer as a player. Good domestically for wednesday, but his limitations were exposed at international level. Same goes for bowyer, if my memory serves me well, he was basically unplayable for leeds for a season or so. Box to box, tackler, creator & scorer.

Last edited by Misura (Tue 10 Oct 2017 10:14 am)

"To tell you the truth, a lot of the younger lads don't care about the FA Cup, they think it's just something your Grandparents talk about. They'd rather we got knocked out." Trevor Davies - Streatham Rovers Football Club

Share

Re: The mighty Lions v some lot in green

It's all guessing though isn't it?

It's too many players from overseas in premiership.  It's not enough kids playing football at an early age.  It's picking big kids and not skillful ones.  It's the players losing touch with reality.  It's the wrong system.  It's the wrong manager.  It's not picking flair players (Worthington,  Le Tissier,  Barkley(?)) and sticking by the industrious guys (Palmer,  Batty,  Henderson(?))........

We don't have a fucking clue let's be honest

For me,  it all starts with a charismatic manager who looks at the variety of players he has,  assesses the systems he favours,  and then matches the two.  All the other stuff will give you the small % gains that they speak about in cycling and (possibly) make the difference between semis and winning

My tuppence ha'penny on it anyway

You are what you repeatedly do. Excellence is not an event - it is a habit.

Share

Re: The mighty Lions v some lot in green

I remember reading that Vieira had to be coached through the games by his colleagues, as he had a tendency to switch-off.

Fair play to him though, he's the one who asked for the coaching.

Share

Re: The mighty Lions v some lot in green

We're shit.  Enough said.

Share

Re: The mighty Lions v some lot in green

Misura wrote:

[
I disliked him as a person, but i liked palmer as a player. Good domestically for wednesday, but his limitations were exposed at international level. Same goes for bowyer, if my memory serves me well, he was basically unplayable for leeds for a season or so. Box to box, tackler, creator & scorer.

To coin a cricket phrase, 'flat track bullies'.

You nicely swerved the Arsenal double pivot... Viera was a defensive midflielder, as was Petit (converted LB) both who could get forward which is what you want from a midfielder, odd that hehe - and played in a very attacking side - get f*cking Gilberto out of that line up big_smile
In this day and age of crazy transfer fees for average players Viera would be unaffordable

Take off hosers ...

Share

Re: The mighty Lions v some lot in green

space wrote:

We're shit. Enough said.

We are & we aren't that's the curious thing, innit. It's the thing that interests the bruce tuckman in me. The constituent parts are all good quality, they're given great support and yet the firework never seems to ignite. I'm criticising henderson, but he's still a premiership quality player that would feature in 90% of international teams. As would the majority of the 11. It's not like england are looking at nick montgomery to give a creative spark. The majority of the starting 11 are not only in the starting 11's for their domestic teams, but are in the top 4 performers. It's as if they need a foreign team mate to fire them up (de bruyne, eriksen, pogba, etc). Sterling has been on fire for citeh so far this season, and yet looked lost for england. It's a funny one and no doubt.

"To tell you the truth, a lot of the younger lads don't care about the FA Cup, they think it's just something your Grandparents talk about. They'd rather we got knocked out." Trevor Davies - Streatham Rovers Football Club

Share

Re: The mighty Lions v some lot in green

Toronto Ted wrote:
Misura wrote:

I disliked him as a person, but i liked palmer as a player. Good domestically for wednesday, but his limitations were exposed at international level. Same goes for bowyer, if my memory serves me well, he was basically unplayable for leeds for a season or so. Box to box, tackler, creator & scorer.

To coin a cricket phrase, 'flat track bullies'.

You nicely swerved the Arsenal double pivot... Viera was a defensive midflielder, as was Petit (converted LB) both who could get forward which is what you want from a midfielder, odd that hehe - and played in a very attacking side - get f*cking Gilberto out of that line up big_smile

In this day and age of crazy transfer fees for average players Viera would be unaffordable

You'll notice it's something I do quite often on here. big_smile

I never rated petit; something i'm sure he dwells on as he polishes his world cup winners medal. In his mansion. Whilst checking his bank balance with Coutts.

Without getting some of my dvd's out, I'm not 100% you can double pivot in a 4-4-2, but i'll take your word for it. wink

"To tell you the truth, a lot of the younger lads don't care about the FA Cup, they think it's just something your Grandparents talk about. They'd rather we got knocked out." Trevor Davies - Streatham Rovers Football Club

Share

Re: The mighty Lions v some lot in green

Puts on Black Francis squawk ..."It's educational !"

Take off hosers ...

Share

Re: The mighty Lions v some lot in green

Misura wrote:
space wrote:

We're shit. Enough said.

We are & we aren't that's the curious thing, innit. It's the thing that interests the bruce tuckman in me. The constituent parts are all good quality, they're given great support and yet the firework never seems to ignite. I'm criticising henderson, but he's still a premiership quality player that would feature in 90% of international teams. As would the majority of the 11. It's not like england are looking at nick montgomery to give a creative spark. The majority of the starting 11 are not only in the starting 11's for their domestic teams, but are in the top 4 performers. It's as if they need a foreign team mate to fire them up (de bruyne, eriksen, pogba, etc). Sterling has been on fire for citeh so far this season, and yet looked lost for england. It's a funny one and no doubt.

Generally, whoever is England manager is forced by The Sun newspaper and its cohorts into selecting the 11 most popular league players.  It doesn't matter how they gel as a team.  If you leave one of them out and the team lose you get sacked.  If you leave them in and they lose you get sacked.  No one ever thinks that maybe the manager should choose 11 players who work as a fucking team.

Share

Re: The mighty Lions v some lot in green

I watched the u17's on sunday morning against  Chile (who are ranked the 2nd best u17's in South America) as Mis says a very cosmopolitan team who also happened to stuff Chile 4-0 - and that didn't flatter them. The futures bright, the futures youth. (this is the same team who lost in the final of the euros earlier this year)

Share

Re: The mighty Lions v some lot in green

Misura wrote:
Toronto Ted wrote:
Misura wrote:

I disliked him as a person, but i liked palmer as a player. Good domestically for wednesday, but his limitations were exposed at international level. Same goes for bowyer, if my memory serves me well, he was basically unplayable for leeds for a season or so. Box to box, tackler, creator & scorer.

To coin a cricket phrase, 'flat track bullies'.

You nicely swerved the Arsenal double pivot... Viera was a defensive midflielder, as was Petit (converted LB) both who could get forward which is what you want from a midfielder, odd that hehe - and played in a very attacking side - get f*cking Gilberto out of that line up big_smile

In this day and age of crazy transfer fees for average players Viera would be unaffordable

You'll notice it's something I do quite often on here. big_smile

I never rated petit; something i'm sure he dwells on as he polishes his world cup winners medal. In his mansion. Whilst checking his bank balance with Coutts.

Without getting some of my dvd's out, I'm not 100% you can double pivot in a 4-4-2, but i'll take your word for it. wink

Double pivot big_smile  ... as England invents 'terminology' the rest of the world just produces great players and great managers who perpetually fuck us over. We talk a great game in England.
Petit, nope not the greatest player, but a great team player, both Jacquet and Wenger saw this.

Last edited by Toronto Ted (Tue 10 Oct 2017 2:22 pm)

Take off hosers ...

Share

Re: The mighty Lions v some lot in green

CBIT wrote:

I watched the u17's on sunday morning against  Chile (who are ranked the 2nd best u17's in South America) as Mis says a very cosmopolitan team who also happened to stuff Chile 4-0 - and that didn't flatter them. The futures bright, the futures youth. (this is the same team who lost in the final of the euros earlier this year)

That chile side are no mugs. Sancho & foden look fantastic talents.

"To tell you the truth, a lot of the younger lads don't care about the FA Cup, they think it's just something your Grandparents talk about. They'd rather we got knocked out." Trevor Davies - Streatham Rovers Football Club

Share

Re: The mighty Lions v some lot in green

England u17's have beaten Mexico u17's and are officially luminous beings.

They are perceivers. They are a collective awareness. They are not objects. They have solidity. They are boundless. The full side are frail creatures who should be forgotten about. Or shot and buried in shallow graves on hackney marshes. Or both. The choice is the FA's.

One thing for certain is that foden is the dog's bollocks and may possibly represent the 1st/2nd coming of the messiah, depending on your religion. smile

[video]

Last edited by Misura (Wed 11 Oct 2017 4:04 pm)

"To tell you the truth, a lot of the younger lads don't care about the FA Cup, they think it's just something your Grandparents talk about. They'd rather we got knocked out." Trevor Davies - Streatham Rovers Football Club

Share

Re: The mighty Lions v some lot in green

Misura wrote:

England u17's have beaten Mexico u17's and are officially luminous beings.

They are perceivers. They are a collective awareness. They are not objects. They have solidity. They are boundless. The full side are frail creatures who should be forgotten about. Or shot and buried in shallow graves on hackney marshes. Or both. The choice is the FA's.

One thing for certain is that foden is the dog's bollocks and may possibly represent the 1st/2nd coming of the messiah, depending on your religion. smile

[video]

Looks like a very naughty boy to me

You are what you repeatedly do. Excellence is not an event - it is a habit.

Share

Re: The mighty Lions v some lot in green

Misura wrote:
CBIT wrote:

I watched the u17's on sunday morning against  Chile (who are ranked the 2nd best u17's in South America) as Mis says a very cosmopolitan team who also happened to stuff Chile 4-0 - and that didn't flatter them. The futures bright, the futures youth. (this is the same team who lost in the final of the euros earlier this year)

That chile side are no mugs. Sancho & foden look fantastic talents.


did meeh hi co 3 2 after being 3 0 up and cruising it and then thumped iraq 4 0 , gomez is the standout for me so far.

Share

Re: The mighty Lions v some lot in green

Misura wrote:

As poor a game as i've ever seen at that level from england and they've given plenty to chose from. Players who were either unsure, incapable or unwilling to do any thing, coupled with an almost pathological reluctance to knock it long. An England team with all adventure and creativity sucked out. The modern obsession with 4-2-3-1 possession football boils my piss. Games are won by scoring goals, not on possession %'s. As soon as i see a team lining up with a double pivot i want to weep, and when i see jordan henderson is one of them, i want to saw my own testicles off.

Except the keeper & ilicic, slovenia are shit. Shit from back to front, and they've dealt with 99.9% of what england threw at them tonight, and deserved something from the match. If ilicic would've dived in the 1st half and the forward been a yard quicker in the 2nd, they would've had two penalities. Their lump of a cb is 35 yrs of age and has been old & slow since hes was young. If ever a game cried out for a positve mobile 4-4-2, this was it.

Get rid of southgate by moving him to the lionesses and get in zdenek zeman from pescara just for the world cup. He's 70 yrs old and plays football the proper way; attacking intent, no backward passes and sets out to outscore the opposition. England wouldn't win the world cup, but it'd be proper balls out attacking football. Like a mayfly, short lived & beautiful.

His team is on the left at kick off against inter at the san siro. No fucking double pivots for zdenek.

http://www.topdrawersoccer.com/the91stminute/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Cagliari.jpeg

Cheers chris, i'm glad someone listens to me. big_smile

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DMG4QU5X4AAfCUy.jpg:large

"To tell you the truth, a lot of the younger lads don't care about the FA Cup, they think it's just something your Grandparents talk about. They'd rather we got knocked out." Trevor Davies - Streatham Rovers Football Club

Share

Re: The mighty Lions v some lot in green

Borussia Mönchengladbach sporting director Max Eberl on youth football in England.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DMRsMeyX0AAtE44.jpg

"To tell you the truth, a lot of the younger lads don't care about the FA Cup, they think it's just something your Grandparents talk about. They'd rather we got knocked out." Trevor Davies - Streatham Rovers Football Club

Share

Re: The mighty Lions v some lot in green

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DMRukQPXUAAf4Dc.jpg

"To tell you the truth, a lot of the younger lads don't care about the FA Cup, they think it's just something your Grandparents talk about. They'd rather we got knocked out." Trevor Davies - Streatham Rovers Football Club

Share

Re: The mighty Lions v some lot in green

Misura wrote:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DMRukQPXUAAf4Dc.jpg

Is that a legacy of Sky Money and the myth of the EPL

Share

Re: The mighty Lions v some lot in green

Watched us scrape to beat the Japs in the round of 16 (i so fucking uefa it hurts) on pens last night , how've Dortmund been able to recall Sancho - thought international games took precedence over club football?  And how come City let him go??

Share

Re: The mighty Lions v some lot in green

CBIT wrote:

Watched us scrape to beat the Japs in the round of 16 (i so fucking uefa it hurts) on pens last night , how've Dortmund been able to recall Sancho - thought international games took precedence over club football?  And how come City let him go??

I watched the game & thought we were 'meh'. The pitch seemed worse than in previous games, but i was watching on an hd stream, so the pitch may have been as poor as normal, just in better definition. I thought the japanese were tidy in parts. Some of the penalties were awful.

I'm not 100% sure what dortmund are arsing about about to be honest. They pulled him out of the u17 world cup to join the 1st team in their champions league game, but dropped him play in an u19 champions youth game last night against apoel. He's made the bench for the 1st team domestically be he's nowhere near being a starter.

He went to dortmund for £8m, having turned down £30k a week at citeh, supposedly for footballing reasons, as DVB promised him game time. He's had 0mins for the 1st team, 100mins for the B team & 180mins for the u19, probably less than what he'd have got at citeh. He's 17 1/2 for fucks sake, he's not going to dislodge gotze, kagawa, weigl or sahin whilst i've got a hole in my arse. IMHO he'd have been better suited taking the £30k a week, doing a full u17 WC and going out on loan. And sorting out his haircut at the sametime, he can also sort out kirby's aswell. He looks like dougal out of the magic roundabout.

Last edited by Misura (Wed 18 Oct 2017 2:28 pm)

"To tell you the truth, a lot of the younger lads don't care about the FA Cup, they think it's just something your Grandparents talk about. They'd rather we got knocked out." Trevor Davies - Streatham Rovers Football Club

Share

Re: The mighty Lions v some lot in green

placidcasual wrote:

Is that a legacy of Sky Money and the myth of the EPL

I know i posted the graph, but it's a tad misleading. It's not showing that the players are constant from u17 through to adult.

It might be due to the fact that we've ploughed £'s into the youth game since 2007 at a national and club level.

It might be that english players are more developed physically at that age compared to other countries, and that after 21 the technical ability of other country's players negates this. It's interesting that our 14/0 is similar to frances 13/1, as both teams are the most ethnically diverse in europe.

It might be down to the money that they earn post 21, and the effect it has on the players/people. Their hunger, their willingness to listen to coaches, their wilingness to see themselves not as the finished article but as unfinished work, their desire to spend elongated periods of time at tournaments. It may also have something to do with the difference in how foreign players behave when they are not playing and look after themselves in other countries and how that impacts on their careers latter on. I know that jadon sancho is a talent but £30k a week on a four yr deal at 17 is mind boggling. He probably got £750k singing on fee, so that's £7m gross, excluding boot deal, sponsors & bonuses by the time he's 21.

It might also be about the problems of feeding u17 players through all levels of the game as they get older. Domestically, if you look at chelsea, they are producing talented player after talented player at youth levels, but last night they had only one english player (cahill who they bought in his mid 20's) in their squad. You get to 21 and you're not competing with your age group you competing with the whole world.

"To tell you the truth, a lot of the younger lads don't care about the FA Cup, they think it's just something your Grandparents talk about. They'd rather we got knocked out." Trevor Davies - Streatham Rovers Football Club

Share

Re: The mighty Lions v some lot in green

Misura wrote:
placidcasual wrote:

Is that a legacy of Sky Money and the myth of the EPL

I know i posted the graph, but it's a tad misleading. It's not showing that the players are constant from u17 through to adult.

It might be due to the fact that we've ploughed £'s into the youth game since 2007 at a national and club level.

It might be that english players are more developed physically at that age compared to other countries, and that after 21 the technical ability of other country's players negates this. It's interesting that our 14/0 is similar to frances 13/1, as both teams are the most ethnically diverse in europe.

It might be down to the money that they earn post 21, and the effect it has on the players/people. Their hunger, their willingness to listen to coaches, their wilingness to see themselves not as the finished article but as unfinished work, their desire to spend elongated periods of time at tournaments. It may also have something to do with the difference in how foreign players behave when they are not playing and look after themselves in other countries and how that impacts on their careers latter on. I know that jadon sancho is a talent but £30k a week on a four yr deal at 17 is mind boggling. He probably got £750k singing on fee, so that's £7m gross, excluding boot deal, sponsors & bonuses by the time he's 21.

It might also be about the problems of feeding u17 players through all levels of the game as they get older. Domestically, if you look at chelsea, they are producing talented player after talented player at youth levels, but last night they had only one english player (cahill who they bought in his mid 20's) in their squad. You get to 21 and you're not competing with your age group you competing with the whole world.

Think this has to be the biggest issue but I would also add that coaching probably plays some part.  And I mean coaching prior to U17 level.  It seems to me that 'foreign' players just have a better football brain and seem to be able to adapt to on-pitch situations better.  To me,  at least,  this must be due to how football is ingrained in you from an early age

You are what you repeatedly do. Excellence is not an event - it is a habit.

Share

Re: The mighty Lions v some lot in green

Rhian. On.

Share