Topic: DEBATE ON LYDON & STRUMMER

DEBATE ON LYDON STRUMMER FROM OMJ’S
Personally I think , the Clash & the jam after 77 were as bad as as the pistols are  now.
The Clash did more damage to the punk movement then any one, signing to CBS
“I am so bored with the USA “

You can’t estimate the feeling off betrayal that people felt at the time & still do
Especially after just losing the pistols
After the  lose of  the pistols & the Clash people felt the chance for change had gone & punk imploded

There’s an argument that the Pistols also signed to big corporate labels
But the pistols just caused chaos &nicked their money

Once the Pistols split, The Clash fans became  the equivalent in musical terms as  Man u fans to football
A lot of their  early fans  disassociated themselves from punk, just like the band  did.
At the end of the day there would have been no Clash without the pistols & the Clash will always be in the pistols shadow
Although MaClaren did a good job at destroying it all after the split.
The Clash had about 6 decent songs


The Jam aren’t even worth mentioning.
I remember when the Dickies blew them off stage in 78 & they weren’t even serious.
I don't like Weller either look   how he treated his fellow Jam members.
When they played Bradford Georges hall in 78 he came out with some monstrous quote, but I can’t remember what it was now?
That’s how memorable he his

This might seem harsh but   i am looking at it from a point of view these bands were quite willing to be apart of the most important movement ever ,then when they heard sound sound of cash registers  they were off to join the pop elite
Unfortunately for punk everyone then tried to follow them
The Ants along with many others tried to keep it going till 80, but when the Ants   joined the pop elite   they did it worse then any of them.
Looking back on it now it really finished in 79


The Pistols & more importantly punk in general  gave people ,especially working class kids the confidence to believe they could change their lives for the better & not follow all the others that went before them into a factory job at the end of the Rd.
It taught you to question everything & not just   what the offical line was.
It taught you how to be an individual & think for your self
To do o what you want to do ,not what your told you should do
Personal anarchy. Destroy in order to recreate
Which is about personal development asupposed to being created by the state , schools ,parents etc
Re educate your self
Liberation!

This did work for a lot of people ,but there were also a lot of casualities as well.
Some people just didn't have the ability to change their lives,but for those that did it gave them the confidence they needed.
"Punk is an attitude  not a fashion


Good point about the buzzcocks, but if they hadn't seen the Pistols the Buzzcocks might not have been born
Punk gave people the confidence  to go out & create & make their own records ,fanzines etc
There might not of been  have been any  independant labels like rough trade ,factory, creation  etc


The pistols now are just a rock n roll band but what they did from 75 till 78 had a massive effect on people's lives.
That's why it's point less going to see them now, unless you just want to see a good rock n roll band?

As for the Happy Mondays i don't think there's anything scary, important or ground braking 
The psychiatric hospitals must be full of people who were influnced by them.
Bezzin down the corridors with their invisible marraca's
The original Punk movement from 76/79 was a positive thing ,not negative.
It was about ideology not music,The music just reflectedhow people felt but there was no template
It became a negative thing when it reinvented itself as oi.
[Cockney rejects & the Exploited & all that shite]
Which was the opposite of what punk was about.
It became a uniform. mohawks ,leather jacket ,tartan bondage trousers & docs.
The doctrine was what they had read in the Sun newspaper  "punks about violence" etc.
It was repessive & narrow minded.
What annoys me most is that is the image people associate with punk.
except for the pistols ,clash ,damned etc everyone  seems to have forgotten most of the bands from 76/79

At the end of the day it's all about opinions & what effect that band or movement had on you personally?
You & a lot of other people may well have benifitted by being involved in that scene?
I went through the acid house /house thing as well & enjoyed it, & i met some great people ,but there were a hell of a lot of casualties.
After the acid , e's,wizz etc  people started taking smack because they couldn't handle the come downs any more.
I lost a lot of good freinds & others are still struggling
Every town & city is full


Some fair points, but it was the signing of the contract  it's self that did the damage not the amount of money involved
that people felt betrayed about.
If they had managed to cause some sort of chaos & got kicked off it might have been different?
It was well documented at the time about the money situation, but the punks viewed the fact that they stayed with CBS
was because  they were ultimately seeking to join the pop elite.

I think Bernie Rhodes was trying to compete with MaClaren & maybe it didn't go quite to plan?
There definately became two separete camps.
I think Strummer tried to rectify the situation with the cheap records but the damage was done.

I agree with the hitchikers guide to punk ,loads of bands with tenuous links that  benifitted from the punk band wagon.
Wreckless Eric, Nick Lowe etc ,etc but the Jam actively sought to be part of it& the Stranglers to some extent.

The Weller quote was nothing to do with the spitting incident .
He  was a interviwed  he did a day before the gig maybe in the T& A ?
I can't remember what he said ?but i can remember feeling incensed by his comments.

The spitting that night at Georges as horrible it was like spit central.
Do you remember when the people down the front were spitting at the Dickies so the singer went off stage & came back with the biggest water pistol i have ever seen & drenched everyone down the front?
It still carried on though.
He still seems to be the same Lydon to me.
I agree with his opinions on most things.
He seems to talk more sense then anyone else in the media spotlight

I always thought the  difference between Lydon & Strummer was
Lydon sang about things personal to him .
There didn't appear to be anything personal in Strummers songs?
He seemed to be singing about what we all should be doing collectively& other people's expieriences
Lydon didn't want to lead anyone he just wanted to be able to live is life how he wanted .
Strummer came across as the person who wanted to be a leader.

That's the middle class for you.

Lydon was a doer ,Strummer was a thinker

I only ever met Lydon once at the xmas day pistols gig at Huddersfield & he impressed me with his down to earth attitude
He didn't act like he was in arguably the most important band of the time.
He was just walking up to people & talking to them naturaly
When i saw the Clash Strummer was ok ,but he didn't come out & talk to people it appeared he was waiting for them to come talk to him?
For any one that missed that thread i think it's in the memorable gigs section, if anyone 's interested?

My other great memory of things  pistols related was 77
My mate Tim invited me to his school disco at Cardinal Hinsley's
Tim who was on crutches at the time with a broken leg
No body was dancing & all the nuns [cathalic school]were all standing round the perimeter of the dance floor more like guards then
stewards.
I took never mind the bollocks lp to the dj both & asked the dj if he would play a track of the lp?
He said "yes ! , which one?"
I said "bodies"

The record started i got up & danced with Tim trying his hardest on his crutches.
The song got to the Fuck this ,fuck that part.
all of a sudden we heard a big scratch across the record then all the nuns ran on the dance floor picked Tim up by his crutches
about 8or 9 nuns  rugby tackled me to the floor .then picked me up
Then they opened the fire door & threw us both out .with both of landing on our arses
Lovely people those nuns 

The week after i went to The grange school disco & me & my mate were acossted by the head master for dancing to the pistols again.He grabbed hold of me & said "excuss me this is a disco & people have come to dance"
I told him we were dancing.
He marched us to his office then rang my mates mum up & she had to come & collect him .
He was in in last yearat school , i had left in April ,thank god

This was supposed to go in the other guys [can't remember what it was?]interview but i like them both

Iam not clever enough to write a book on my memoirs
although i did manage a dissertation.
I was under pressure with time running out so i wrote about my life.
It certainly cut the research  time out .
The tutor told me i should publish it.
It's still sat around the flat somewhere.

I seem to remember a lot about the 70's & 80'smusic ,football ,squatting etc but i think i would struggle with
the  90's especially the  house period.
It just seemed to be one long party.

I do however remeber one night after we had been to Kaos we went up to Sunny's in Chapletown
we had a bit of a dispute with some guys but it seemed to get sorted?
when we set off home the back wheel of the van came off & overtook us
we were all out of our heads so everyone started laughing.
People were boucing all over the back of the van
I started singing "it's a fine to leave me loose wheel"
instead of lucile
Everyone joined in as our driver battled to keep us on the Rd.
whe eventually pulled up he got out & found that someone had loosened the nuts on the wheel:hmm:

I aslo rememeber a well know poster on here giving me a job as security at one of the early Tolerance gigs at Rio's
i was supposed to keep people of the stage
after about an hour the stage was full & i was dancing along to all the choons 

The things i seem to remember most about that time was the unsavoury aspects like the guy getting stabbed at the Ark at Bradford Uni or when The Ointment   had a big off with Tony Ross's Salford mates  in 91



Going back to Mick's Bowie Book.
For a lot of the early punks Bowie & Roxy music were the 1st reference point.
There used to be a Bowie /Roxy night in a pub in Leeds called the Precinct? just off Brigate
I remember going one night.
Adam & the ants  had just joined the charts .late 80 early 81
There was this guy dressed as the new Adam with his pirate garb on
I was dressed  in my old leathers i wore at Ants gigs.
They played an Ants track[it must have been a track that the old ants played that they put on the b sides of the singles] so  he got into the dance floor.
I say get  in ,because it   was built like a boxing ring.
This guy was prancing around to the track
These girls i was with were egging me on to dance.
I had had a few beers & they wouldn't let it lie so i got in  as well.
I just started rolling across the floor & jumping around looking menacing, punching the posts
The guysuddely jumped out of the dance floor. he  must have thought that i was going to hit him?
After the record & went up to him said sorry & explained thats how people use to dance at Ants gigs
before pop .

Anyway after all that it looks like i might be going to the Pistols gig in Nov?
All my old punk mates over the country seem to be interested in having a get together , maybe the last one?
Last edited by soldierant (Fri 21 Sep 2007 04:40 am)


agree!
but that's only my own opinion too
I think white riot is about  the riot in Notting Hill i don't think Strummer was  directly involved, but read about it or witnessed it from afar?
It is a rallying call to the white working class to follow the lead of the West Indians & fight back

Also is Strummer the White man in Hammersmaith Palias? or is he telling a story about someone else?
Carreer Oportunities could be about most working class kids at the time .still relvant today
Iam not that formiliar with the lyrics of the other 3 songs as i don't have them

It seems to me Strummer is singing about how  people   should live their  life & how maybe how other people's expierences have had an affect on how he see's things
[A typical middle class trait
Good intentioned, but they don't think anyone in the working class as the abilty or intelect to fathom it out themselves.]
I think Strummer is singing about how other people's expirences have affected him personally

By the way Lets not turn this into a class issue as there is good & bad in every class
except the class i was in at school:lol:
It's just that i think each class as certain characteristics

Lydon is singing about what is  personal to him 

This is a great thread & some excellant points for discussion from everyone
I can't believe that all these years after Punk had supposidly died
That's it's been resurrected back to life on OMJ'S
We even seem to have reastablished the two separate camps
Although they were both good blokes in their own way


I do miss the human aspect of this discussion, because my monitor "he don't care"
It Would have  been  better all sat down with a pint or 3.

"Only when we liberate ourselves are we in a position to help liberate others"

punks not dead , it just lies dormont

Il reply later to the kind offers  of wrtting the book issue later as i have to bob out[mick ,strap etc]

I find it hard enough writting on here ,i have to go back & keep editing bits

"To the classless"

I like dead musicians ,not live music.

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