Re: Should we stay or should we go?

albert herbert hawkins wrote:

Another pro Remain mate of mine mine posted this on FB...


Right. Fuck this. We're ALL up shit creek and we need a paddle. Now, not in three months.

Fellow Remain voters: Enough already. Yes, we're all pissed off but navel gazing ain't gonna help. Not all 17 million Leave voters can possibly be racist northern pensioners without an O level to their name. Maybe they have a point about this quitting the EU thing? Maybe not. Whatever, we are where we are and no amount a whinging is gonna change that. Allegedly we're the intelligent ones, so get your thinking caps on.

Leave voters. Well done. Good game. We hear you. Now you need to get stuck in to the aftermath and not just piss off back to Wetherspoons. (Just banter, twats!). And the first person to say they "want their country back" gets deported to fucking Gibraltar. OK?

Politicians.

David. Fuck off. Shut the door behind you. Now.

George. You may be a twat but you're our twat. Plus you know the passwords for our Junior Savers account. Get your calculator. Drop the face-like-a-slapped-ass routine. You're on.

Boris. Sorry mate. That photo of you abseiling by your scrotum over the London Olympics while waving a Union Jack can't ever be un-taken. Plus, you'll never be able to appear on Question Time again without some sturdy Glaswegian nurse asking where the fuck her 350 million quid is. Not only will she have a very good point, she'll be wearing a T shirt that shows you gurning in front of that fucking bus! No captains hat for you I'm afraid.

Theresa. You're in charge love. Get the biggest shoulder pads you've got. We need Ming The Merciless in drag and you'll scare the shit out of 'em.

Nicola. Yep. Fair cop. You probably could get us on a technicality, as could London. But we fucking love shortbread. And oil. And to be honest you're probably the best politician we've got, so we need you on side. Sort your lot out and we promise never to mention that Jimmy Krankie thing again (although it is pretty uncanny) and we'll make you a Dame once we're sorted. Bring Ruth Davidson. She kicks ass.

Opposition party. We'll need one. Someone take Jeremy and John back to the British Legion Club where you found them. Take Nigel as well. Give back their sandals, buy them a pint, then go to Heathrow and collect David Milliband. Fuck it. Lets gets Ed Balls as well. He keeps George on his toes. I think he works on the lottery kiosk at Morrisons now?

Oh. And Mark Carney. Give him a knighthood and tell him to keep that shit coming. We definitely need more of that good shit!

Everyone set? Right. Hold the Easyjet. We're going to Brussels and this ain't no hen party.

Really rather amusing big_smile

You are what you repeatedly do. Excellence is not an event - it is a habit.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

David Milliband can fuck off - damaged goods from 03...

Aim Low and miss...

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

So we are going and going hard.

This is a fucking disaster for Labour IMHO.

May has planned this.  Reaching out to that 52% and the core of Labour voters.  Call a GE and we have yet another term of Tory bullshit.

The only thing that would be different is f she calls it after pulling the trigger and the Labour voters then say thank you very much and revert to normal patterns and, a la 1945,  Corbyn wins by a landslide.

However all this just makes me think how Thatcher dismantled our manufacturing industry in the 80's and how we would very much like that now as opposed to this service industry model we have instead.

At such cross purposes all this lot.

All in all, and it pains me to say it, but some great politicking from May yesterday.

Aim Low and miss...

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

I couldn't help thinking that it would be fairly easy to manage immigration if there was a will.  If we were in the single market like Norway but also has free movement like Norway but we're not subject to EU law like Norway we could immediately set rules that apply solely to incomers who don't work and implement a healthy living wage policy.  Yes there would be inflator but no cunt would want to come here as a bag of chips would be £12 like in Norway. 

Can  I vote for that?

I'd offer you a beer, but I've only got six cans.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

danpiesley wrote:

So we are going and going hard.

This is a fucking disaster for Labour IMHO.

May has planned this.  Reaching out to that 52% and the core of Labour voters.  Call a GE and we have yet another term of Tory bullshit.

The only thing that would be different is f she calls it after pulling the trigger and the Labour voters then say thank you very much and revert to normal patterns and, a la 1945,  Corbyn wins by a landslide.

However all this just makes me think how Thatcher dismantled our manufacturing industry in the 80's and how we would very much like that now as opposed to this service industry model we have instead.

At such cross purposes all this lot.

All in all, and it pains me to say it, but some great politicking from May yesterday.

I thought it was just us being in the EU and most French/Germans/Spanish people would rather poke their own eyes out than buy British.  But if it was otherwise then please explain further.

Last edited by space (Wed 18 Jan 2017 11:53 am)

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

Diminished role of trade unions, Privatisation and the collapse of the North spring to mind.

Aim Low and miss...

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

danpiesley wrote:

Diminished role of trade unions, Privatisation and the collapse of the North spring to mind.

So it was the Unions that were keeping industry together?  Like the success story of Leyland et al? 

The decline was nothign at all to do with service industry success overpricing our currency and making exports of manufactured goods less likely?  It had fuck all to with the rise of Eastern manufacturing?  It had nothing to do with us being tied up in the post Maastricht protection racket that supported German industry only?

I'm still lost mate.  What exactly did Thatcher do to kill industry?  And why?

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

space wrote:
danpiesley wrote:

Diminished role of trade unions, Privatisation and the collapse of the North spring to mind.

So it was the Unions that were keeping industry together?  Like the success story of Leyland et al? 

The decline was nothign at all to do with service industry success overpricing our currency and making exports of manufactured goods less likely?  It had fuck all to with the rise of Eastern manufacturing?  It had nothing to do with us being tied up in the post Maastricht protection racket that supported German industry only?

I'm still lost mate.  What exactly did Thatcher do to kill industry?  And why?

She was uniquely in a position to fix it but didn't.  Largely because she lacked the skills and went headlong into an ideological battle instead that fucked over working people.  Mainly because Heath hadn't managed to establish a consensus with all parties to achieve some form of balance.  No such thing as "society" she said and that was all some communities had.  Yes some unions played their part but faced with destruction of their livelihood what do they do?  Fight. 

We have gone from bloated nationalised industries requiring subsidies (which could have been managed better) to having private sectors which receive just as much subsidy but he money doesn't go the work force it goes in he pockets of their mates on the board.  That or they are bought up by foreign nationalised industries (power, trains, buses, water) and they overcharge us to subsidise their operations.  That, in my view, is a national scandal.

Not getting into a Thatcher this ,Thatcher that discussion but I am no fan of the ideology and think her legacy of privatisation and, in particular, right to buy, has had a massively detrimental effect on the low paid.   A sector of society that has grown hugely.

I'd offer you a beer, but I've only got six cans.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

Reggie Perrin wrote:
space wrote:
danpiesley wrote:

Diminished role of trade unions, Privatisation and the collapse of the North spring to mind.

So it was the Unions that were keeping industry together?  Like the success story of Leyland et al? 

The decline was nothign at all to do with service industry success overpricing our currency and making exports of manufactured goods less likely?  It had fuck all to with the rise of Eastern manufacturing?  It had nothing to do with us being tied up in the post Maastricht protection racket that supported German industry only?

I'm still lost mate.  What exactly did Thatcher do to kill industry?  And why?

She was uniquely in a position to fix it but didn't.  Largely because she lacked the skills and went headlong into an ideological battle instead that fucked over working people.  Mainly because Heath hadn't managed to establish a consensus with all parties to achieve some form of balance.  No such thing as "society" she said and that was all some communities had.  Yes some unions played their part but faced with destruction of their livelihood what do they do?  Fight. 

We have gone from bloated nationalised industries requiring subsidies (which could have been managed better) to having private sectors which receive just as much subsidy but he money doesn't go the work force it goes in he pockets of their mates on the board.  That or they are bought up by foreign nationalised industries (power, trains, buses, water) and they overcharge us to subsidise their operations.  That, in my view, is a national scandal.

Not getting into a Thatcher this ,Thatcher that discussion but I am no fan of the ideology and think her legacy of privatisation and, in particular, right to buy, has had a massively detrimental effect on the low paid.   A sector of society that has grown hugely.


Strangely I agree with almost all of that.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

space wrote:
Reggie Perrin wrote:
space wrote:

So it was the Unions that were keeping industry together?  Like the success story of Leyland et al? 

The decline was nothign at all to do with service industry success overpricing our currency and making exports of manufactured goods less likely?  It had fuck all to with the rise of Eastern manufacturing?  It had nothing to do with us being tied up in the post Maastricht protection racket that supported German industry only?

I'm still lost mate.  What exactly did Thatcher do to kill industry?  And why?

She was uniquely in a position to fix it but didn't.  Largely because she lacked the skills and went headlong into an ideological battle instead that fucked over working people.  Mainly because Heath hadn't managed to establish a consensus with all parties to achieve some form of balance.  No such thing as "society" she said and that was all some communities had.  Yes some unions played their part but faced with destruction of their livelihood what do they do?  Fight. 

We have gone from bloated nationalised industries requiring subsidies (which could have been managed better) to having private sectors which receive just as much subsidy but he money doesn't go the work force it goes in he pockets of their mates on the board.  That or they are bought up by foreign nationalised industries (power, trains, buses, water) and they overcharge us to subsidise their operations.  That, in my view, is a national scandal.

Not getting into a Thatcher this ,Thatcher that discussion but I am no fan of the ideology and think her legacy of privatisation and, in particular, right to buy, has had a massively detrimental effect on the low paid.   A sector of society that has grown hugely.


Strangely I agree with almost all of that.


It's feels a bit silly and petty to still do the Hate Thatcher thing that I held onto for years.  It's time for a retrospective bit of analysis and she doesn't come out of it well when hindsight is applied.  Seeds planted, and watered by successive cunts have really made a mess of certain areas. 

Housing benefit paid to private landlords is another scandal.  Public money piling into the bank accounts of the middle class, whilst poor people work full time on shit money topped up by the taxpayer.

Last edited by Reggie Perrin (Wed 18 Jan 2017 7:30 pm)

I'd offer you a beer, but I've only got six cans.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

Reggie Perrin wrote:

It's feels a bit silly and petty to still do the Hate Thatcher thing that I held onto for years.  It's time for a retrospective bit of analysis and she doesn't come out of it well when hindsight is applied.  Seeds planted, and watered by successive cunts have really made a mess of certain areas. 

Housing benefit paid to private landlords is another scandal.  Public money piling into the bank accounts of the middle class, whilst poor people work full time on shit money topped up by the taxpayer.

I'm just tired of the all the lets hate Tories/Thatcher dogma.  It's politics by memes.  And apologies to dan, but I'm in a thorny mood today.

And housing benefit?  New Labour were too populist to do anything about it and when the Tories tried to cap it they were likened to Pol Pot.  So the chances of that rip off changing any time soon is negligable.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

space wrote:
Reggie Perrin wrote:

It's feels a bit silly and petty to still do the Hate Thatcher thing that I held onto for years.  It's time for a retrospective bit of analysis and she doesn't come out of it well when hindsight is applied.  Seeds planted, and watered by successive cunts have really made a mess of certain areas. 

Housing benefit paid to private landlords is another scandal.  Public money piling into the bank accounts of the middle class, whilst poor people work full time on shit money topped up by the taxpayer.

I'm just tired of the all the lets hate Tories/Thatcher dogma.  It's politics by memes.  And apologies to dan, but I'm in a thorny mood today.

And housing benefit?  New Labour were too populist to do anything about it and when the Tories tried to cap it they were likened to Pol Pot.  So the chances of that rip off changing any time soon is negligable.

Nah.  Tories love housing benefit because it means their mates can pay shit wages as housing is subsidised by the state.  The great irony is that they call council housting "subsidised" but it's anything but.  It's housing  built on land already owned and funded by money already going out the door.  It's just good business.  Tories hate council housing because it makes the poor more stable and it isn't a scam.

I'd offer you a beer, but I've only got six cans.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

Reggie Perrin wrote:
space wrote:
Reggie Perrin wrote:

It's feels a bit silly and petty to still do the Hate Thatcher thing that I held onto for years.  It's time for a retrospective bit of analysis and she doesn't come out of it well when hindsight is applied.  Seeds planted, and watered by successive cunts have really made a mess of certain areas. 

Housing benefit paid to private landlords is another scandal.  Public money piling into the bank accounts of the middle class, whilst poor people work full time on shit money topped up by the taxpayer.

I'm just tired of the all the lets hate Tories/Thatcher dogma.  It's politics by memes.  And apologies to dan, but I'm in a thorny mood today.

And housing benefit?  New Labour were too populist to do anything about it and when the Tories tried to cap it they were likened to Pol Pot.  So the chances of that rip off changing any time soon is negligable.

Nah.  Tories love housing benefit because it means their mates can pay shit wages as housing is subsidised by the state.  The great irony is that they call council housting "subsidised" but it's anything but.  It's housing  built on land already owned and funded by money already going out the door.  It's just good business.  Tories hate council housing because it makes the poor more stable and it isn't a scam.

Either I've been banged on the head or the Tories announced a cap on housing benefit aimed at the rocketting London rental markets and were accused of ethnic cleansing style attack to banish poor from London.  Result was nothing changed.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

Reg one point about your housing bit, the correction shouldn't be at the wage end as you imply, it should come on the housing benefit side. As things stand if wages go up, rents will go up.

The problem with the London thing is it was a sticking plaster approach. There needs to be a cross party solution to the whole housing benefit issue, if they really cared about the country they would take the politics/votes out of it. It's a huge stymie on the economy and the working low paid.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

space wrote:
Reggie Perrin wrote:
space wrote:

I'm just tired of the all the lets hate Tories/Thatcher dogma.  It's politics by memes.  And apologies to dan, but I'm in a thorny mood today.

And housing benefit?  New Labour were too populist to do anything about it and when the Tories tried to cap it they were likened to Pol Pot.  So the chances of that rip off changing any time soon is negligable.

Nah.  Tories love housing benefit because it means their mates can pay shit wages as housing is subsidised by the state.  The great irony is that they call council housting "subsidised" but it's anything but.  It's housing  built on land already owned and funded by money already going out the door.  It's just good business.  Tories hate council housing because it makes the poor more stable and it isn't a scam.

Either I've been banged on the head or the Tories announced a cap on housing benefit aimed at the rocketting London rental markets and were accused of ethnic cleansing style attack to banish poor from London.  Result was nothing changed.

Window dressing.  They didn't do it in the end as their mates politely suggested that they would not be able to employ cheap people close enough to the City to do the menial shit.

I'd offer you a beer, but I've only got six cans.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

space wrote:
Reggie Perrin wrote:

It's feels a bit silly and petty to still do the Hate Thatcher thing that I held onto for years.  It's time for a retrospective bit of analysis and she doesn't come out of it well when hindsight is applied.  Seeds planted, and watered by successive cunts have really made a mess of certain areas. 

Housing benefit paid to private landlords is another scandal.  Public money piling into the bank accounts of the middle class, whilst poor people work full time on shit money topped up by the taxpayer.

I'm just tired of the all the lets hate Tories/Thatcher dogma.  It's politics by memes.  And apologies to dan, but I'm in a thorny mood today.

And housing benefit?  New Labour were too populist to do anything about it and when the Tories tried to cap it they were likened to Pol Pot.  So the chances of that rip off changing any time soon is negligable.

But I do hate Tories and Thatcher and I blame them for the inequality in society and I will continue to twat on about for the foreseeable, thorny moods or not.

Also what RP said.

Aim Low and miss...

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

So if we continue to pay inflated prices of Landlords its because Tories are evil, and if we stop paying inflated prices to landlords its because Tories are evil.

It's almost a New Labour policy anouncement.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

Don't put words in my mouth - thank you please.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

Smutty Lips wrote:

Reg one point about your housing bit, the correction shouldn't be at the wage end as you imply, it should come on the housing benefit side. As things stand if wages go up, rents will go up.

The problem with the London thing is it was a sticking plaster approach. There needs to be a cross party solution to the whole housing benefit issue, if they really cared about the country they would take the politics/votes out of it. It's a huge stymie on the economy and the working low paid.


Yeah I don't disagree with that to be honest but if there were realistic rents for secure council tenancies like there used to be then wages needn't skyrocket but the Housing Benefit bill would be slashed.  This is an example of why I think the Tories lie about public spending as they are happy to spend when it leaks out into private hands but they seem to have a problem with the actual citizens of the country benefiting from it.  Baffling.

If you look at where they have come from (particularly in London where there used to be fairly well paid manual labour on the docks, markets and so forth).

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

space wrote:

So if we continue to pay inflated prices of Landlords its because Tories are evil, and if we stop paying inflated prices to landlords its because Tories are evil.

It's almost a New Labour policy anouncement.

Well they aren't stopping it so yes.  They said they might and their voters went ape-shit because Housing Benefit was paying for the little terrace they bought instead of having a pension.  As did their corporate sponsors as it meant they would struggle to get anyone to work for fuck all in London without huge Housing Benefit support.   

It's like these scare stories where the Daily Express doorstep some poor cunt from Somalia who is holed up in some big but fucked house in Kensington (it's always Kensington because everyone thinks it's posh but half of it isn't).  Old Mo Farah lookeelikee doesn't know or care that the house might be worth £2m but you have to ask what system makes a landlord rent it out for £5k a month instead of selling it.  Housing Benefit that's what, that and fucked houses in London increasing in value by about £100k a year.  Nice work if you can get it, even better is Joe Shmoe is funding the whole thing.  Lucky landlord chappy doesn't even have to cut down his Beluga intake whilst he waits to become a millionaire.

I'd offer you a beer, but I've only got six cans.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

danpiesley wrote:

Don't put words in my mouth - thank you please.

Feel free to point out the part I got wrong.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

Reggie Perrin wrote:
space wrote:

So if we continue to pay inflated prices of Landlords its because Tories are evil, and if we stop paying inflated prices to landlords its because Tories are evil.

It's almost a New Labour policy anouncement.

Well they aren't stopping it so yes.  They said they might and their voters went ape-shit because Housing Benefit was paying for the little terrace they bought instead of having a pension.  As did their corporate sponsors as it meant they would struggle to get anyone to work for fuck all in London without huge Housing Benefit support.   

It's like these scare stories where the Daily Express doorstep some poor cunt from Somalia who is holed up in some big but fucked house in Kensington (it's always Kensington because everyone thinks it's posh but half of it isn't).  Old Mo Farah lookeelikee doesn't know or care that the house might be worth £2m but you have to ask what system makes a landlord rent it out for £5k a month instead of selling it.  Housing Benefit that's what, that and fucked houses in London increasing in value by about £100k a year.  Nice work if you can get it, even better is Joe Shmoe is funding the whole thing.  Lucky landlord chappy doesn't even have to cut down his Beluga intake whilst he waits to become a millionaire.


Tories went ape shit?  I think you were in a different time line mate.  The left went mental because of claims of social cleansing.  It was said that the evil tories were trying to gentrify London by getting rid of the paupers.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

space wrote:
Reggie Perrin wrote:
space wrote:

So if we continue to pay inflated prices of Landlords its because Tories are evil, and if we stop paying inflated prices to landlords its because Tories are evil.

It's almost a New Labour policy anouncement.

Well they aren't stopping it so yes.  They said they might and their voters went ape-shit because Housing Benefit was paying for the little terrace they bought instead of having a pension.  As did their corporate sponsors as it meant they would struggle to get anyone to work for fuck all in London without huge Housing Benefit support.   

It's like these scare stories where the Daily Express doorstep some poor cunt from Somalia who is holed up in some big but fucked house in Kensington (it's always Kensington because everyone thinks it's posh but half of it isn't).  Old Mo Farah lookeelikee doesn't know or care that the house might be worth £2m but you have to ask what system makes a landlord rent it out for £5k a month instead of selling it.  Housing Benefit that's what, that and fucked houses in London increasing in value by about £100k a year.  Nice work if you can get it, even better is Joe Shmoe is funding the whole thing.  Lucky landlord chappy doesn't even have to cut down his Beluga intake whilst he waits to become a millionaire.


Tories went ape shit?  I think you were in a different time line mate.  The left went mental because of claims of social cleansing.  It was said that the evil tories were trying to gentrify London by getting rid of the paupers.


Mate, it wasn't a public "ape-shit" it was in the background and preceded by "I say old boy, do you realise what this would mean......".

If it was just the left then it would have happened.  I would consider myself old school let and I supported it on the whole because it would have been such a monumental clusterfuck it would have made a case for social housing.  I'd be interested to know where he Tories are headed with Cameron's senseless (and probably illegal) notion that he could force housing associations to adhere to "Right to Buy". 

Just for context the guy who brought in "Right to buy" under Thatcher Ian Gow's son owns 40 ex-council properties.  Is he being forced to sell them at a massive discount? No.  1/3 of all ex-council properties are now privately rented and they aren't being forced to sell them at a discount either.

Last edited by Reggie Perrin (Thu 19 Jan 2017 4:03 pm)

I'd offer you a beer, but I've only got six cans.

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

I wonder about the 'Thatcher smashing UK manufacturing' headlines that come up from time to time. Is it not the case the UK manufacturing did not invest in itself and thus made ever shitter products in many areas? One example, my old man used to have a driving school and taxi business in the seventies and used to buy quite a few cars each year. He stopped in the late 70s buying British cars and started buying Japanese, because they ''simply never break down''. If he had carried on buying British cars, he would never have made a living because of the continual problems/ costs he had. Clearly he was not alone, and hence we no longer have a car industry to speak of.

I appreciate that the coal industry and steel industries et al are different from this example but you can't blame it ALL on Thatcher.

'When you become a grown up, people stop asking you what your favourite dinosaur is....They don't even care.'

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Re: Should we stay or should we go?

Mitaman wrote:

I wonder about the 'Thatcher smashing UK manufacturing' headlines that come up from time to time. Is it not the case the UK manufacturing did not invest in itself and thus made ever shitter products in many areas? One example, my old man used to have a driving school and taxi business in the seventies and used to buy quite a few cars each year. He stopped in the late 70s buying British cars and started buying Japanese, because they ''simply never break down''. If he had carried on buying British cars, he would never have made a living because of the continual problems/ costs he had. Clearly he was not alone, and hence we no longer have a car industry to speak of.

I appreciate that the coal industry and steel industries et al are different from this example but you can't blame it ALL on Thatcher.

Not sure anyone on here is though.

On this subject I would compare us to France.  They still make 5 brands from 2 domestically owned motor groups.  Do they pay shit wages?  Do they have weak unions?  No, there was a will to make it work as it was seen as important (same in Germany, Italy, etc).  This is where Thatcher failed pretty spectacularly.  It's not really good enough to say "well if you won't change I will let you fail".  That's like abandoning some of your kids but favouring others, that's why there is resentment toward her and her ideology.

She could have fixed it but didn't have the skills.  Heath failed (the unions have a lot to answer for in their role in not reaching consensus) and Thatcher decided that there was no way to reach agreement so sat and watched it all fail.

Last edited by Reggie Perrin (Fri 20 Jan 2017 10:15 am)

I'd offer you a beer, but I've only got six cans.

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