Ukraine v Russia.

albert_herbert_hawkins

Mitaman Bang on, he's a grubby little secret policeman who never got over losing his rubber-hosing privileges.

albert_herbert_hawkins

What is rather comical is that plenty of those on here who are working themselves up into a right old frenzy of Boris's hypocrisy and likely law-breaking on lockdown would like to give the benefit of the doubt to an undoubted villain who could not be more obvious in his intent were he wearing a hooded cape.

Reggie_Perrin

albert_herbert_hawkins glad you find the prospect of war in Europe comical.

Foxy_Dread

Mitaman
I was referring to the east/west tension.
Putin has his own motives, he wins even if it turns out just to be sabre rattling for home popularity, his allies in the west win as previously explained.

albert_herbert_hawkins

Reggie_Perrin not even remotely what I said. Though if I may counter in similar vein you seem very worried about the body count that may be caused by intervention though unconcerned by casualties that may result from an unchecked Russian invasion.

space

Reggie_Perrin Deals can be struck. The west is capable of curbing his financial activity but equally he can play the cunt with gas supply. Deals will have to be done and Ukraine or some pipeline rights could be the chips.

Seeing as stealing and selling the Russian gas supply is how Putin and his robber baron mates get hold of their billions when they turn the taps off he is also hitting himself and his mates. They keep the taps turned down a little to keep the price up, but a war and a gas switch off would hurt them as much as us.

I think in this instance Putin believed his own propoganda a little too much and went too far. The plan was to still have the orange stool in the whitehouse and be gifted Ukraine. He thought he still had the influence to push it through. He probably still thinks that. I don't think he has.

Reggie_Perrin

albert_herbert_hawkins no idea where you get that from. Ukraine is not in Nato, Russia do not have troops on our border yet Nato seems to give us this right and it is accepted. It was you who brought comedy into it. I see no humour in it.

Mitaman

If Nato didn’t exist, all of the ex-Soviet nations would be back under Russia’s control years ago.

There is a reason Lithunia, Latvia et al allow (Read: invited) Nato troops on their soil to plant hardware and do military exercises. There is a very real and ongoing threat from Russia walking back in and taking the country back.

Putin bleating about Nato being on his doorstep is a nonsense. If it wasn’t for him, they wouldn’t need to be part of Nato. Those nations joined to protect themselves.

Singapore, Malay, India etc getting their sovereignty back after WW2 was a good thing. They didn’t need Nato to protect themselves from Britain taking them back, and nor should the old Soviet countries, but they bloody do unfortunately.

Nobody wants war, that would be very very bad and I hope the solution is diplomatic.

Foxy_Dread

Mitaman good old benign blighty, what good souls they were.

Mitaman

Foxy_Dread We weren’t and that is my point. It was the US and other alliance countries that forced us to do it. Rightly.

Added, we should also give NI back to Ireland and Falklands back to Argentina, in my opinion, but hey, thats just me.

space

Mitaman Falklands back to Argentina

You do know they have never been Argentinian, right? There is no "back" involved.

Reggie_Perrin

space True but they cannot be serviced from here, Argie cooperation is essential. I'm sure we wouldn't welcome The Orkneys being Argentinian.

albert_herbert_hawkins

Been British since 1832, were Argentinian for fourteen years, though have also been French, and run by a septic for a bit, as well as being ours in the late 1700s before we fucked off for a while. There’s no indigenous population so the Brits living there have a right to self determination having been in place 188 years. They wish to remain British, so the Argentinians can poke it. A proximity is a bit of a red herring whilst they are 8000 miles from us, they are also 800 miles from Argentina, hardly next door.

Reggie_Perrin

albert_herbert_hawkins but servicing is a factor due to distance.

space

albert_herbert_hawkins Been British since 1832, were Argentinian for fourteen years

Is that the 14 years (I think it may be 16) following the countries creation in 1816 that Argentina claim that they inherited the islands from Spain, because, you know, they used to belong to Spain too, so there's an implied thing going on that can't be specified in simple international legal terms but every Argentinian feels in his heart - Viva Las Malvinas!! (I may be paraphrasing their exact claim but it's something like that).

albert_herbert_hawkins

Reggie_Perrin yes logistically it’s not easy. But do we just relinquish sovereignty because it’s inconvenient? We did that with HK and frankly I’m ashamed of it. The overwhelming majority of HK Chinese do not wish to be part of the PRC, glad we gave them passports and are opening the door for them in UK. A few months ago our cab driver gave us a free ride home as he realised we were British as he’d just got his British Passport. nice of him as it was all I could think was how we’d let them down.

albert_herbert_hawkins

space I’m unsure of the precise date of independence 1816 or 1818 there was stuff going on between those years but I can’t remember precisely the whys and wherefore as it’s coming up 40 years since I was reading about it. But yes the Argies contention is based around inheritance from Spain, plus of course they were much closer given the technology of the day than Spain an the Islands were administered before Argentinian independence from Buenos Airies as well as after until we went back in 1832.

space

albert_herbert_hawkins It's a while since I read up on it but do seem to remember that at the time of them claiming this inheritance they had no presence on the Island until over a decade later they sent a platoon sized unit of men with very few supplies who went feral and shot their officer. Eventually a British ship turned up to establish a whaling station on the Island and gave all but one of them a lift home - the final soldier deciding to stay and work for the British. And thus their occupation ended until the Junta had a go.

Reggie_Perrin

albert_herbert_hawkins think they need to consider some kind of shared administration and also if mineral rights which is what it's all about let's face it.

Mitaman

albert_herbert_hawkins We did that with HK and frankly I’m ashamed of it.

But we didn’t do that with HK did we? HK was on a 100-year lease from China which expired in 1997.

space

Mitaman But we didn’t do that with HK did we? HK was on a 100-year lease from China which expired in 1997.

Wasn't it just the Kowloon part of HK that had the expired lease? HK itself was granted in perpetuity I thought (albeit at the business end of a 12 pounder Naval cannonette or two).

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