Djpekingman
ahh - belgians and french in africa. It's always gonna end in tears. Or in a museum in Tervuren. On a stick.
Raposa
Didn't many of the Tutsi's in Rwanda ask the Belgians to shoot them before they pulled out,so they were spared death by machete?Fucking horrific really.
scootay
Fuck me the world is one horrific place. I watched city of life and death last year about nanking. I can't get my head round what a human being can do to another. A pal of me dad's had a haulage company between norn Ireland and england (he was ni) the ira had tried a little bullying etc and he had held them off. His wife got raped and apparently it was a random attack. Some time later the attacker was put in front of me dad's mate, tied up. His catchers passed him a gun and told him to kill him. He couldn't do it. He had the pressure of being beholden to them obviously but he just said that when he had the gun pressed to the lads head he couldn't pull the trigger. Couldn't take a man's life in cold blood.
fuzzy
Always thought it important to be aware of what is happening in the world but the things I have read on Srebrenica are amongst the things I almost wish I could unread and unsee.
MolOverBeethoven
[quote=Misura]Yes. Below are extracts from a writ of summons from the dutch law firm Van Diepen Van der Kroef Advocaten:[i]Dramatic events were taking place everywhere. Old men were murdered. Children were snatched out of the hands of their mothers and parents committed suicide because their daughters were taken away and raped.[/i][i]At one time, I saw how a young boy of about ten was killed by Serbs in Dutch uniform. This happened in front of my own eyes. The mother sat on the ground and her young son sat beside her. The young boy was placed on his mother’s lap. The young boy was killed. His head was cut off. The body remained on the lap of the mother. The Serbian soldier placed the head of the young boy on his knife and showed it to everyone. There were at that moment Dutch soldiers in the vicinity. They stood by and did nothing. They appeared to be entirely indifferent. The woman was hysterical and began to call out for help. A Dutch soldier who was standing there said only, “No, no, no.” I think that it was a Dutch soldier. The Serbs forced the mother to drink the blood of her child. Chaos broke out among the refugees.[/i][i]I saw how a pregnant woman was slaughtered. There were Serbs who stabbed her in the stomach, cut her open and took two small children out of her stomach and then beat them to death on the ground. I saw this with my own eyes. These Serbian soldiers were followed around by a number of Dutch soldiers. I am convinced that there were Dutch soldiers present. I recognized them. I was not under the impression that they were afraid or forced to be present. I am pretty certain that they were armed. The Dutch soldiers did nothing at all.[/i][i]The Serbs began at a certain point to take girls and young women out of the group of refugees. They were raped. The rapes often took place under the eyes of others and sometimes even under the eyes of the children of the mother. A Dutch soldier stood by and he simply looked around with a walkman on his head. He did not react at all to what was happening. It did not happen just before my eyes, for I saw that personally, but also before the eyes of us all. The Dutch soldiers walked around everywhere. It is impossible that they did not see it.[/i][i]I saw a group of Chetniks hold down a woman of about 65 years old while one of the Chetniks stuck his arm up into the vagina of the woman and tore out her womb. After this happened she was still alive. She survived it. I saw that with my own eyes. Some four or five Dutchbat soldiers were standing in the immediate vicinity. They did nothing.[/i][/quote]Oh my God, that is just horrific. It shows what groups of men are capable of when chaos reigns and there's no accountability. My mate served in Bosnia, will not talk about it ever.
Mitaman
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gore
[quote][url]http://www.ggdc.net/maddison/China_book/Chapter_2.pdf[/url]The Ch’ing dynasty performed extremely well in terms of its own objectives from the end of theseventeenth to the beginning of the nineteenth century. From 1700 to 1820 population rose from 138to 381 million — nearly eight times as fast as in Japan, and nearly twice as fast as in Europe. Thispopulation growth was accommodated without a fall in living standards. Chinese GDP grew fasterthan that of Europe in the eighteenth century even though European per capita income rose by aquarter.The second achievement was the feeling of security derived from the huge expansion in the areaof imperial control. In 1820, China’s national territory was 12 million square kilometres, about twicewhat it had been in 1680. The expansion was in very sparsely populated regions which in 1820accounted for only 2 per cent of total population. They were not then intended for ethnic Chinesesettlement, but to secure the Inner Asian frontiers in great depth to prevent barbarian intrusions of thetype China had experienced in the past. Mongolia was conquered in 1696–97. Its tribal structure wasmodified to make it more docile. The boundary of the Manchu dynasty’s own homelands was fixeddeep into Siberia in the 1689 Treaty of Nerchinsk with Russia. Taiwan was conquered in 1683, Tibetin 1720 and a huge area of central Asia (Chinese Turkestan, later Sinkiang) in 1756–57. There was anouter perimeter of docile tributaries, in Burma, Nepal, Siam, Annam, Korea and the Ryukus whichwere felt to provide an extra layer of security.China’s nineteenth century was a dismal contrast. There were a whole series of internalrebellions which were difficult and costly to suppress. The biggest, the Taiping rebellion, lasted 14years and involved enormous damage to China’s central provinces. The traditional military forcesfailed to suppress it and fiscal resources were under great strain in developing a new militaryresponse. The authorities ceased to be able to maintain major hydraulic works. The Yellow Riverdikes were not maintained. There was a disastrous change in the course of the river in 1852–55, and asilting up of the Grand Canal. By the end of the century it could no longer be used to provide grainsupplies to Peking. As a result of these disasters, China’s population was no higher in 1890 than in1820, and its per capita income was almost certainly lower. China had been the world’s biggesteconomy for nearly two millennia, but in the 1890s this position was taken by the United States. Therecord under the various Republican regimes (1912–49) was also dismal. Chinese GDP per capita waslower in 1952 than in 1820, in stark contrast with experience elsewhere in the world economy.China’s share of world GDP fell from a third to one twentieth. Its real per capita income fell fromparity to a quarter of the world average[/quote]
Djpekingman
I believe one has to be very careful with these kind of historical 'fact'. Certainly it had the biggest economy because it had a third of the world's population. The richest though? Unlikely. Certainly not per capita. While great strides were made during the Qing dynasty they still managed to self destruct, with the deaths of 10s of millions of people. OK imperialist interests helped but the chinese have proven pretty adept throughout history of wiping out large chunks of their population without any outside help. They were still at it until fairly recently - Mao - 70 million dead in peacetime. The comparison with Japan is a particularly poor one especially given their isolationist stance until the late 19th century caused massive stagnation and even regression in their economy.
gore
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Mitaman
I think it depends on how you measure wealth in a society. For me, that is 'per capita' income would seem a sensible personal measure and not GDP. I still have some doubts about China's 'wealth' at that time I have to say. For sure the UK ran up a huge deficit with them, hence the drug trade correcting the balance, so exports from China even at that time were skewing global trade (as they are today) and you can assume large GDP growth, but real wealth?
gore
So about this Putin bloke...[quote][url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10984700/MH17-Hypocrite-David-Cameron-wont-scupper-our-warships-deal-with-Russia-French-insist.html[/url]David Cameron is a hypocrite to demand France cancel a deal to build warships for Russia while London remains a haven for oligarchs, France’s foreign minister has said. Laurent Fabius let slip his irriation with the prime minister over his comments that it would have been “unthinkable” for Britain to have done such a deal when the West has strong misgivings about Moscow’s role in the downing of flight MH17. “Dear British friends, let’s talk about finance,” he said. “I was led to believe that there were quite a few Russian oligarchs in London.” Asked whether he was inviting the UK to put their own house in order before making comments, Mr Fabius replied: “Exactly.” In Saint-Nazaire, western France, where the grey bulk of the Vladivostok towered over the dockside, most took a similar view. With thousands of jobs dependent on its shipyards, few harboured qualms about the €1.2billion (£950million) contract for the Vladivostok and its sister ship, the Sevastopol. The owner of Le Ralliement, a café patronised by shipyard workers a few hundred yards from where the Vladivostok is docked, bristled with anger at Mr Cameron and Barack Obama, the US president. “Obama should get off our case and concentrate on solving America’s problems,” said the burly 62-year-old, who declined to be named. Thumping his hands on the bar for emphasis, he said: “As for Cameron, he should stop being the voice of his master and obediently repeating everything Obama says. If he wants to be heard in Europe, he should act as if he’s part of it.” He stroked his moustache before adding: “The British should have been kicked out of the EU when they chose not to take the euro like everyone else. And that soft president of ours hasn’t got the guts to stand up to anyone.” Asked if it was morally justifiable to sell sophisticated warships to Russia after the downing of Flight MH17 by a missile which Washington says was fired from an area in eastern Ukraine held by pro-Moscow rebels, the café owner said: “If we don’t sell ships to them, someone else will.” Around the port, used by the Nazis as a submarine base in the Second World War, many shared his opinion, even if they expressed it less vehemently. Stéphane Gohaud, a 46-year-old taxi driver, described the MH17 disaster as “horrifying and tragic”, but added: “It should never have flown over a war zone. I don’t believe the Russians wanted it to be shot. It was a horrible mistake.” In Paris, the head of Mr Hollande’s Socialist party, Mr Cambadélis, defended the decision to push ahead with delivery of the Vladivostok, due in October. Mr Hollande has said that delivery of the second ship will depend on Russia’s attitude. “Hollande is not backing down,” Mr Cambadélis said, a day after Mr Cameron said it would be “unthinkable” for Britain to fulfil such an order. “This is a false debate led by hypocrites … When you see how many [Russian] oligarchs have sought refuge in London, David Cameron should start by cleaning up his own back yard.” Like many shipbuilding towns, Saint-Nazaire has seen orders decline. With 14 per cent unemployment, considerably higher than the national average, it has received a much-needed boost from the Russian contract. Christophe Morel, a union representative at the STX France shipyard, said: “It helps seven to eight thousand people stay in work.” About 400 Russian sailors are spending three months in the town training to operate the helicopter carriers. They can be seen strolling in the centre. Shopkeepers, who have been armed with a glossary of Russian phrases by the chamber of commerce, said there were always Russian sailors at the open-air market on Sunday morning. Some have been joined by their partners for the summer holidays. Two tanned sailors walking near the beach yesterday with their wives said they did not understand why Russia was being blamed. “We did not attack this plane,” said one, who gave his name as Arkady. “There must be an investigation before the Americans can say it was our fault.” [/quote]
Mitaman
[quote] “The [b]British should have been kicked out of the EU when they chose not to take the euro like everyone else[/b]. And that soft president of ours hasn’t got the guts to stand up to anyone.”[/quote]There's a few on the other side of the English Channel lamenting that decision...
space
I'm starting to fear that Donbas is going to be Putin's Sudetenland. The west are flooding it with high tech weapons and Putin will try and grab it via a political settlement. I think he's banking on the trouble he's causing the US and Europe on the social/economic level will make them collectively "Nevill Chamberlain" the region away. He could mop up a shed load of new western military tech in the process.
doggybag
space
It would be a disaster for western democracy if Putin were to be mollified here. It is his strategic aim to drive a wedge between the European countries, isolate them and pick them off one at a time. He got Crimea without a response, South Ossetia and Abkhazia without a response, he's put ground to air missiles in the hands of gangsters who then downed a civilian plane. There was no response. He's assassinated critics and opponents on the sovereign soil of independent countries and there has been no response. This time, he must be told to put up or creep back to his dark little rooms in the kremlin and keep on plotting.
hendersonjones
Send in the charge of the light brigade
space
doggybag I always saw the UK as being the most hawkish member of the EU when it came to foreign policy and the EU are sadly missing us.
Mitaman
Just cut off their access to capital markets. They won’t have access to overseas currencies and won’t be able to pay for shit. That would fuck them, but he could simply switch off the gas, which he has done before.
Odious little gangster, the world would be a better place without him, thats for sure.
He will not stop until he reunites the old Union of Soviet states.
Reggie_Perrin
Mitaman I'm unsure if it's worse than US invading middle east states for oil.
doggybag
I don't support either but only one is planning to actually 'assimilate' the country under the dictatorship.
space
doggybag I don’t support either but only one is planning to actually ‘assimilate’ the country under the dictatorship.
I had to think for a few seconds which one you meant.
Reggie_Perrin
space same here. I'm mot convinced Putin is as much my enemy as cunts like Rees-Mogg.