Israel

Flaneur

It's so fucked up.

Loose_Lips

Travis_Bickle And I can see how you consistently fail to hold Hamas and others to account in the same way you do Israel and Israelis.

I may be getting the wrong side of this @Travis_Bickle but I do not hold Hamas to account in the same way I do of the Israeli government.

One is a terrorist organisation and the other is a member of the UN in one of the most advanced countries on earth.

Travis_Bickle

Loose_Lips I understand that and see some force in the point. But the difficulty is the practical reality of calling for a ceasefire. In reality, it's a unilateral request.
I don't think Israel is justified in the bombing that it has undertaken in recent weeks. I think the impact has been disproportionate. And I think they should stop the bombardment. I don't see that they should necessarily stop any ground campaign.
But I also believe that Hamas have sought to force Israel's hand in that regard by using human shields and weaving their infrastructure into the fabric of Gazan life (all achieved, I suspect, through the fear of ordinary Gazans who might be minded to object).
When we call for a ceasefire, we're asking Israel to cease a campaign against an enemy that resolutely refuses to even consider doing the same. Hamas could release the hostages. Hamas have consistently fired rockets into Israel since October the 7th. To a large extent, Iron Dome has meant we haven't seen similar scenes on the other side to those horrific images from Gaza.

Loose_Lips

Travis_Bickle When we call for a ceasefire, we’re asking Israel to cease a campaign against an enemy that resolutely refuses to even consider doing the same.

Very true.

Misura

"According to the Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor, Israel has dropped more than 25,000 tonnes of explosives on the Gaza Strip since October 7, equivalent to two nuclear bombs.

In comparison, the Little Boy nuclear bomb dropped by the United States on Hiroshima during World War II yielded 15,000 tonnes of high explosives and destroyed everything within a one-mile (1.6km) radius."

cordshoes

I've said my piece on this, and know that others have a different viewpoint.
Not ideal, but it is what it is. I do understand that Hamas aren't helping the situation either.

Nobody who is pro Israel's stance ever mention the daily killings, piled up body bags, and open graves akin to the second World War.
What I do see almost daily from them is pictures of scruffy students and weird LGBT types (their words) who are pro-Palestine, with comments such as "look at the state of these cunts".
Is this how they justify the mass killings and destruction of peoples worlds, by distracting themselves with some sort of superficial superiority ?
Genuinely bemused by the mental gymnastics involved in this. 😧

Misura

It’s stuff like this that seriously worries me.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12889363/Tube-driver-chant-free-Palestine-Underground-interviewed-police.html#article-12889363

Travis_Bickle

Not sure it needs the police. But he had no business chanting that. Or anything even vaguely political for that matter. That kind of performative shit never ends well....

Misura

Travis_Bickle that’s exactly what I was meaning. No need for it, a straight forward disciplinary, back at work after a warning & that’s that.

The benchmark for police involvement is now ridiculously low, especially for situations that are filmed/recorded.

space

Travis_Bickle And I can see how you consistently fail to hold Hamas and others to account in the same way you do Israel and Israelis.

Every time I have mentioned Hamas it is with nothing short of revulsion because I am capable of condemning both sides which is exactly what I have been doing. Meanwhile you have glossed over 70 years of Israeli history and have made absolutely no comment about the long slow ethnic cleansing handed out by the Israeli "Settlers" or any comment generally on the "Occupation". The one sided viewpoint of this situation is entirely your own.

20000 dead and counting. The Palestinian non-combatants are dying because they're being targeted. Israel are saving their smart bombs for future conflicts and dropping dumb munitions in built up areas because they don't give a fuck.

Spin that.

Travis_Bickle

Both sides? Really? You repeatedly talk of '70 years'. Well let's try 76.
30th November 1947. 2 states. The UN's Partition Plan for Palestine. Deal done. Jewish leadership accept it. Jordan has the West Bank. Eygyt has Gaza. Problem was, the Palestinian leadership and various Arab states didn't accept it.
So they started a war.
They lost.
1948 and the British relinquish control. They left Haifa. The Jewish leadership declared the formation of Israel.
The Palestinian leadership and various Arab states didn't accept it.
So they started a war.
They lost.
Again.
Jordan. Syria. Iraq. Lebanon. All fought. All lost. By 1949 they were signing armistices as Israel captured the Negev.
Saying you see both sides doesn't mean you actually do.

space

Travis_Bickle Both sides? Really? You repeatedly talk of ‘70 years’. Well let’s try 76.
30th November 1947. 2 states. The UN’s Partition Plan for Palestine. Deal done. Jewish leadership accept it. Jordan has the West Bank. Eygyt has Gaza. Problem was, the Palestinian leadership and various Arab states didn’t accept it.
So they started a war.
They lost.
1948 and the British relinquish control. They left Haifa. The Jewish leadership declared the formation of Israel.
The Palestinian leadership and various Arab states didn’t accept it.
So they started a war.
They lost.
Again.
Jordan. Syria. Iraq. Lebanon. All fought. All lost. By 1949 they were signing armistices as Israel captured the Negev.
Saying you see both sides doesn’t mean you actually do.

Can I clarify that your position is that the above is fair reason and justification for the settlers driving people out of their houses and communities in the territory that is occupied Palestine? That, I think, was the question put to you.

Travis_Bickle

I should also add that yesterday was thought to be the first in the 75 days since the 7th of October atrocities that Hamas and others didn't fire rockets into Israel. Any optimism was misplaced. They're at it again.
Their bombs may be dumb. But they still chuck them at Jews. Every single day.

Young_Marxist_at_Tescos

Travis_Bickle That’s not quite right, is it? They fire at Israel

Travis_Bickle

Young_Marxist_at_Tescos Hamas don't see that distinction.
For the avoidance of doubt, Israel should have stopped their bombardment. But Hamas haven't stopped their own either.

Young_Marxist_at_Tescos

Travis_Bickle I’m not defending Hamas. I just think it’s worth reminding ourselves, as a lot of Jewish people seem keen to do, that the Israeli population is not solely Jewish.

Loose_Lips

Travis_Bickle But Hamas haven’t stopped their own either.

I spoke with my mate in the legal team yesterday in Tel Aviv. He's not one to pull any punches. He said Hamas are still firing whats left but its virtually the last armed fighter tossing the oldest bombs they have over the fence.

space

Travis_Bickle Hamas don’t see that distinction.
For the avoidance of doubt, Israel should have stopped their bombardment. But Hamas haven’t stopped their own either.

You seem incapable of separating "Hamas" from the general Palestinian population. In other scenarios this would be considered as racism. No one here, and I mean no fucking one at all, has ever defended the actions of Hamas. All defence has been for the men, women and children who are being targeted quite deliberately in the ensuing ethnic cleansing of the Gaza strip. I pretty much cannot see any justification for the IDF to drop unguided 2000lb bombs into a built up area where civilians abide but this is happening. Actions like that in any other theatre are tagged as war crimes.

Travis_Bickle

Young_Marxist_at_Tescos given what Jews in Israel and elsewhere are facing at the moment, I think we can forgive them mentioning israel's plurality, however imperfect.
Hamas may have altered their charter in 2017 but their deep-seated and genocidal attitude to Jews, all Jews, remains.

cordshoes

Compared to the highly bombed upon Gaza population, don't Israel have the benefit of an Air Dome( or similar) that means hardly anything gets through anyway?

Travis_Bickle

cordshoes yes. Thousands of rockets have been fired. They're very basic and fairly indiscriminate in their 'targeting' as a result.
Take Iron Dome away and the death toll would be markedly higher.
I think the aysmetrical nature of the.conflict I mentioned frames a lot of attitudes to the wider issues.

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