Israel

Flaneur

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz9drj14e0lo?at_format=link

Foxy_Dread

Flaneur subhuman scum.

space

After years of deep diving into wars all over the globe on all manner of social media I have had to delete most of my accounts over what is happening in Gaza. It's worse than Ukraine on so many levels. The Russians kill kids and the old and the sick because they don't give a fuck who is on the end of it, but there are so many cases where the IDF are aiming at kids and civilians and delighting in the horror.

It's broke me. I literally can't read any more.

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I have noticed that the people that kept telling me off for saying that Israel was committing genocide have now without exception shut the fuck up.

doggybag

The latest Eye has an article on the number of doctors and nurses that have been killed by the Israelis. Some of them arrested and tortured to death, their bodies still being held by the Israelis. Not only do they revel in killing innocent people, they are wiping out any chance for the injured to get medical attention thus dying by neglect. If that's not targeted genocide...

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doggybag The fact that every single office registered to foreign news organisations were targeted in the first few days of the war pretty much highlighted how things were going to go.

Foxy_Dread

Has anyone seen the post on twitter re Tory Alan Duncan and the Israeli state looking to marginalise him.

Israel as a nation are a set of cunts and should face the fate of a nation of cunts.

space

Foxy_Dread I really don't ever want to draw comparisons about things that are happening in Gaza and the actions of the Nazis, but I'm running out of non-Nazi points of reference.

Travis_Bickle

space however horrific things may be in Gaza, and they are, they are not remotely comparable to the final solution.
When Gazans are rounded up and slaughtered on an industrial scale, when camps are designed and built with the sole purpose of mass execution and when people are experimented on you can draw your comparisons.

space

Travis_Bickle I'm not quite sure what to call a campaign designed to use the murder and torture of civilians to cleanse a geographic area of it's indigenous population either by killing them, starving them, creating health crises and generally driving the survivors out. It's not a holocaust, but as far as solutions go it seems pretty fucking final to me.

Travis_Bickle

space as at late June, 13,782 people had applied for medical evacuation from Gaza. Around 35% saw their request granted. That figure is too low. But it gives the lie to your talk of final solutions. The only medical treatment Jews received from the Nazis was perverted experimentation.
There are hundreds of aid trucks coming through Kerem Shalom. Israel has the will and capacity to process more. Whilst accepting that armed gangs of Palestinians pose a significant problem when it comes to distribution, the UN suggest Israel could still do more within Gaza itself as food and supplies stack up. Let's assume that's right and accept they could. The final solution saw no food and no aid reaching those in Jewish ghettos. From Germany to Belarus, the approach was enforced starvation and murder on an industrial scale. 2,200 killed in one day in Bialystock in Poland. 3000 then killed there on 'Black Saturday'. 23,600 killed over two days in the Kamianets-Podilskyi massacre in Hungary. No food. No aid. Many of the warnings given by Israel as to where strikes may be aimed have proved dangerously ineffective. But no warnings were given and no leaflets were dropped when 33,000 Jews were systematically killed by machine guns in Babi-Yar in the Ukraine. 100s of 1000s were already dead by the time the camps were being built and trains were rumbling into them with human cargo.
I could go on. And on and on. Perhaps Israel could do more with aid distribution and with protection of civilians. But the reality on the ground gives the lie to your talk of final solutions.
All conflicts are ugly. All lead to the loss of innocent life. Too many have died in Gaza. And continue to do so. But the figures suggest a lower civilian casualty ratio than conflicts around the world in recent years. Which, again, gives the lie to your talk of final solutions.
So you can keep your fucking comparisons to be honest.

space

Travis_Bickle If you could read my initial post, I most certainly did not make the comparison. I quote: "I’m running out of non-Nazi points of reference."

I am thoroughly aware of European history with respect to the World War periods, thank you very much.

I called it a final solution because the exit point of the IDF/Israeli operation is to end the Palestinian question once and for all. The West Bank will continue to be slowly subsumed and Gaza will be squeezed into an ever smaller area and starved of resources until it dies. It is a solution and it is very fucking final. There is no going back to an uneasy equilibrium (if one ever existed outside the perceptions of the west). This is the beginning of the end game. Finality in it's very essence and most certainly a solution in the eyes of Netenyahu and the IDF. The semantic issue here is that I was referring to "a final solution", and you read that as "the final solution".

Incidentally, how many more dead Palestinians and documented atrocities and war crimes is it going to take until you stop making excuses for the actions of Israel? 20K, 50K, 100K?

Travis_Bickle

space The semantic issue here is that I was referring to “a final solution”, and you read that as “the final solution”.

'Final solution'. In the context of Israel. And framed by your apparently 'running out of non-Nazi points of reference'. But there was no comparison at play. Perish the thought. I'm sure you are well aware of European history. Perhaps you should remind yourself of it a little more when you blithely bandy around such phrases whilst struggling with how not to go all 'Nazi'.

As for my own view, I'd happily see Netanyahu removed. And a ceasefire. I'd like to see the IDF orchestrate an unprecedented aid and food relief campaign. I'd like to see an end to civilian deaths. I'd like to see an end to land grabs. I'd like to see the international community work towards a two-state solution. And to work towards rebuilding Gaza as part of that.
But I'd also like to see a situation that realistically allows all of that. So I'd like to see the hostages released. And an end to indiscriminate rocket attacks upon civilian targets. I'd like to see an end to suppression of dissent in Gaza. And some elections. I'd like to see aid that does get through properly distributed and not hoarded by a powerful few. I'd like to see Iran's influence diminish. And Hezbollah's aggression end.
And, perhaps most of all, I'd like to see those living in luxury who have it in their gift to order Hamas fighters to stop hiding within the civilian population do so immediately.

As I wrote above, 'too many have died in Gaza'.

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Travis_Bickle It was you that made the comparison to the holocaust, not I. I will post up what I wrote for a third time just in case you understand the words and their meanings.

“I’m running out of non-Nazi points of reference.”

You countered that with "however horrific things may be in Gaza, and they are, they are not remotely comparable to the final solution."

There are things happening there that I can only compare to acts perpetrated by Nazi units during the second world war. At no time did I compare it to the holocaust. That was all you.

Shit is happening there, shit done by the IDF against civilians and quite often women and children that I would compare to the antics of the likes of the 1st Mountain Division, circa 1944. If it wasn't for the proliferation of camera phones and the scrutiny that Gaza is under I would fully expect us to be discussing Sebrenica style atrocities. I fear that we will someday soon.

space

We seem to beat around the same bush over and over again. Let me put my point of view centre of whatever argument is going on here.

You can excuse loosing an attack dog at a vulnerable child by pointing out an election result from 18 years ago.

You cannot excuse the dropping of unguided munitions into refugee camps by pointing out that someone said mean things about Israelis at some point in the past.

You cannot excuse the killing of 15000 children by saying "What about the hostages?"

You cannot excuse atrocities with anything.

You. Cannot. Excuse. Atrocities.

Yet some people try.

Travis_Bickle

One day you might reflect on how easily you dismiss Hamas's history and what they did on October the 7th. And what they still do now. Then again, you probably won't.
Nobody excuses atrocities. But you continue to ignore the ones perpetrated against Israelis. They didn't say 'mean things'. They butchered and raped. They livestreamed it and revelled in it. They rang family members and boasted about it.
How easily you dismiss that.

So we agree about one thing. You cannot excuse atrocities. They can't and don't justify everything Israel has done.
But you can ignore them. You prove that.

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Travis_Bickle I have never once excused or dismissed the actions of Hamas on October 7th or before October 7th,despite your numerous claims that I have. Please link back or quote when I've done this.

What I have said numerous times is that nothing justifies killing 15000 children. I really can't believe that you continue to dispute that truth that should be acxiomatic. The fact that their enemy is using civilians as a human shield does not in any way free them from the constraints of international law or basic human decency.

The IDF are getting to rhe point where they killed 10 children for every Israeli killed in the attack by Hamas. What ratio does that have to get to before you think they've gone too far this time?

Flaneur

Would it be a good thing, for all of us 20 blokes, who frequent this little boozer, and that generally rub up against each other pretty well, to delete this thread?

Djpekingman

Flaneur But it's a massive thing, even though our influence is pretty much non existent. My issue is that there are still people apologising for one of the sides when both should be roundly condemned.

Young_Marxist_at_Tescos

Flaneur I politely disagree. Genuinely think it’s a fierce, but still largely respectful debate.

Suspect none of us would want an environment that’s too cosy. Is that fair?

Misura

The gift that keeps giving

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jul/21/draft-israeli-law-to-limit-academic-speech-labelled-mccarthyite

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/13/it-is-a-time-of-witch-hunts-in-israel-teacher-held-in-solitary-confinement-for-posting-concern-about-gaza-deaths

Travis_Bickle

Misura as reprehensible as his sacking and arrest were, for balance, it's important to note that the Israeli High Court reinstated him in his teaching role. In so doing, the Judge made it clear that the events of October the 7th did not change "the boundaries of teachers' freedom of speech". It's also significant that, for all that the actions of the police departed from it, due process ensured his release.
Netanyahu seems intent on sullying Israel's reputation more than anyone in recent memory. A worrying number of Israelis appear content for him to do so. But vast numbers don't and have kicked back against him throughout his tenure. The 'Black Flag' protests went on for well over a year in 2020-21. 110k filled the streets of Tel Aviv to challenge his proposed constitutional reforms in early 2023. As I posted elsewhere, recent polling suggests a majority of Israelis want a deal to end the conflict.
Israel is far from perfect. But there are few, if any, democracies about whom he we couldn't find similar stories. There were myriad examples here in the UK up to about a fortnight ago.

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