Israel

Flaneur

In the literal cradle of Christ (allegedly), it is hell on earth.

doggybag

I have a theory that the Christ thing is a scam being played on us by the devil and that the Earth is actually hell. A small minority find ways to live their lives and disappear without too much suffering. The vast majority are impoverished, brutalized, tortured, imprisoned, subjugated, robbed, raped, stalked, abused, horribly ill, disfigured erm, erm... you get the idea

space

doggybag Hmmmm... this theory explains the existence of Mrs Brown's Boys, the music of James Blunt and the town of Croydon.

Travis_Bickle

Placid that depends on both sides.
I know it's an unfashionable view on here, but there are two sides to this war (there are arguably 4 in the wider conflict). Hamas could return the hostages (easily done as earlier releases prove), give guarantees as to a cessation of conflict (rather than maintaining their current stance of 'all the land is ours and you Jews flee or die') and hand over those who committed atrocities on October the 7th (remember that day, the one that kicked it off?). Doing that would leave Netanyahu with no choice but to end military action, even if only temporarily. Arguably well-founded suspicions that he and many in his cabinet want to use the conflict as a cover for land-grabbing on an enormous scale would be tested and the truth exposed.
But that won't happen. War is brutal. It always has been. We burnt children alive in the 40s. And we've done so ever since. We're not alone. Hamas continue to try and kill Jews (not Israelis, Jews) on the same scale that they did in October. It's only the limitations of their backers arming them and Iron Dome that have stopped the casualty figures being the same on both sides. 54,000 have died in Ukraine. Estimates put the death toll at over 600,000 in Syria in a decade (remember that one too, not as much TikTok traffic for the Syrians or weekly marches for that matter). Myanmar has seen over 25,000 dead this year already. I doubt those people died peaceful or pretty deaths. That's war.
It shouldn't happen. But it does.
Maybe Israel should just forget about the hostages? Or that other actors in the region have fired up the 'destroy Israel' war machine they bring out with frightening regularity.

Reggie_Perrin

Travis_Bickle pretty sure ALL Arab nations have promised to guarantee Israel's safety should they officially and fairly define their borders. This guarantee would effectively end Hamas would it not?

space

Travis_Bickle I agree that there are two sides to this conflict, but only one of them has been trying to annex the other sides land over the last 70 years and is currently actively and knowingly targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure and using the withholding of food and medicine as a tool of war.

I said this at the very beginning, if your enemy is using civilians as a human shield you are still not morally allowed to kill them. That's not how the rules of war work. No ifs. No buts. You don't kill kids in retaliation. No ifs. No buts. You don't bomb thousands of schools and hospitals and roll out the claim that they are "command and control centres" each and every time. No ifs. No buts.

I have only ever been on the side of the civilian populations on both sides of this conflict and I honestly can't see how you can roll out in support of the actions of the IDF.

space

Reggie_Perrin pretty sure ALL Arab nations have promised to guarantee Israel’s safety should they officially and fairly define their borders. This guarantee would effectively end Hamas would it not?

Israel have scuppered any agreement that confirms Palestine as a sovereign state. Their goal is complete removal of Palestine.

Travis_Bickle

space I'm not 'rolling out' for them. I do wonder what people suggest Israel should have been done? For example, where Hamas have built 'command and control centres' in schools and hospitals? Where tunnels under residential areas are used? What was a proportionate response? What form does that take?
There seems to be this idea that you can somehow separate out the civilian and military in such scenarios. You can't. It's literally never happened. Does that excuse all of the actions of the IDF? Of course not. I'm no cheerleader for Netanyahu. He's arguably set back a peaceful future for Israelis by decades.

space

Travis_Bickle I’m not ‘rolling out’ for them. I do wonder what people suggest Israel should have been done?

Not spent 70 years allowing "settlers" to evict Palestinians from land in Palestine.

For example, where Hamas have built ‘command and control centres’ in schools and hospitals?

One has to wonder just how many "Command and Control Centres" Hamas has. They must be like arseholes. Everyone must have one.

"According to the United Nations, 477 out of 564 school buildings in Gaza had been directly hit or damaged as of 6 July, with more than a dozen targeted since. Source UN: 10 Aug 2024"

"The Israeli army has destroyed or damaged all 12 universities in the Gaza Strip, by means of air strikes or bombs. Le Monde: 7 Mar 2024."

"Since October 7, the WHO has recorded a total of 890 attacks on health facilities, with 443 occurring in Gaza and 447 in the West Bank. (As of 20 May 2024)"

"According to the Palestinian Journalists' Syndicate, around 70 press facilities, including local radio stations, news agencies, transmission towers, and journalist training institutes, have been partially or completely destroyed since October 7. 26 Jun 2024"

Where tunnels under residential areas are used? What was a proportionate response? What form does that take?

As per previous post. If some bad guy is hiding under a building full of civilians, you can't just drop a bomb on it and blame them for the consequences. That's not how rules of engagement are structured for anyone other than the dictatorships.

There seems to be this idea that you can somehow separate out the civilian and military in such scenarios. You can’t. It’s literally never happened.

I refer to the answer above.

Does that excuse all of the actions of the IDF? Of course not. I’m no cheerleader for Netanyahu. He’s arguably set back a peaceful future for Israelis by decades.

I do however agree with that last sentence in essence. He has provoked all through his tenure because once he's out of power he's in jail. He'll kill a million to cling on to what he sees as his legacy.

Reggie_Perrin

space I think it's clear Netanyahu is out to enact "monumental" change with his far right alliance and hang the consequences. He'll hope he has sufficient sway to be pardoned in the short life he has left but at 75 it's about legacy I guess. Old men looking for an impact in this area are dangerous things.

Travis_Bickle

Only the commanders of the Al-Qassam brigades know the true position, but the best estimates suggest somewhere between 25-50k in total, comprised of a hardcore of highly-trained soldiers with much larger numbers of operatives with varying levels of skill and engagement. Israel claims 17k have been killed. Others put the figures at 8.5k.
Hamas don't tell us. They have every reason not to.

Reggie_Perrin

Travis_Bickle I'm not as smart at you TB, you have a very good job that requires a particularly sharp intellect. On this, I just can't see why you are so entrenched. It's clear to the vast majority that the current Israeli government is operating outside of moral and legal norms and you employ increasingly bizarre justifications whilst ignoring plain facts. You just appear to be supporting Likud and their coalition pals who are on record promoting a "greater Israel". It's indefensible by any and every measure.

90Piesanhour

There is an orchestrated genocide going on in full view of the world; The UN is doing nothing, other than being targetted by the genociders, the west is carrying on supplying the genociders with weapons, but tut-tutting when they don't allow aid in, and it looks like this is now being moved to Lebanon so that they can find out how effective these western weapons are. The whole thing is fucking obscene and the IDF and Netanyahoo are cunts of the highest order. Trying to argue otherwise is like insisting the world is flat or that god exists cos he lives in your street.

Misura

We are currently faced with two likely situations: 1.) Full & final destruction of a Palestinian state and its annexation into Israel and 2.) War & regime change in Iran. Netanyahu knows that if he achieves one or both things he'll be a legend in Israel and all of his past indiscretions will be forgiven. If he doesn't achieve this or if he's not totally forgiven , he'll see out his days feted, in Miami as a protected guest of the US.

Foxy_Dread

Foxy_Dread I should elaborate. TB you are on every other measure sound. On the Israel issue you seem almost one eyed. I was going to add detail to my point but I don't think I need to.

Israel an almighty powerful state are faced by a tiny irritant and they are using massive force to swat a fly.

Flaneur

If only the Palestinians had the same weapons as Israel.

I'm at the stage now where that cunt Netanyahu needs a grim end, the shithouse fucking bully.

Reggie_Perrin

Flaneur this made me think of the Bill Hicks routine on Iraqi republican guards. "9ft tall......we shit bullets". "What's a G17 Tommy?"

Foxy_Dread

TB the theme of your posts over and over again justifies Israel's stance while slagging off Netanyahu. Netanyahu is Israel.

Israel and Netanyahu have done a great big shit on the memory of those who died in the holocaust.

Misura

Quote from The Guardian:

Three of Netanyahu’s ministers, including Bezalel Smotrich, the far-right finance minister, shared a photograph on X on Friday they claimed showed the Palestinian Authority cabinet in the West Bank holding a prayer for Sinwar. The photograph was actually from a 2022 meeting.

“A moment of commemoration for today’s Hitler, Sinwar, after Israel eliminated him,” wrote Smotrich. “This is the same group with a different name … terrorists must be handled as terrorists.”

…and that in a nutshell is what we’re dealing with.

Reggie_Perrin

Misura same folk who advocate for "Greater Israel". Jordan etc beware.

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