Israel

90Piesanhour

Travis_Bickle and the other 1700? Read my following post. I know, they’re just Palestinians who were probably friends with, related to or were harbouring Hamas fighters, as per the media and IDF reporting so they don’t matter.

Travis_Bickle

Foxy_Dread there is no balance on here when it comes to this issue. I shouldn't have bothered stepping back into all.

Foxy_Dread

Travis_Bickle what did I write that you disagree with?

Travis_Bickle

Foxy_Dread your uncanny ability to determine, firstly, whether war crimes have been committed (for the record, I suspect they have been) and, perhaps more importantly, to provide figures for that.
It's like your suggestion that Israeli is a nation full of 'poisonous cunts'. There are unquestionably quite a lot of them. But here's where my point about balance arises again. With the ceasefire just hours old, plenty of Palestinians were vowing to rid their land of Jews, not Israelis, Jews. Probably the same people that dress their children as terrorists and have them inact murder. Or the ones that sent their young people into Israel to stab indiscriminately.
There are plenty of 'poisonous cunts' on both sides. Those 250 that are now free are just one example. The 1700 may include people wrongly detained. I struggle with detention without charge for lengthy periods. But they are at war.
There's more to this on both sides.
But no, over the literally 100s of posts on here, Israel is always at fault. Always to blame.

Foxy_Dread

Travis_Bickle

At what point did Nelson Mandela stop being a freedom fighter and become a terrorist? At what point did Nelson Mandela stop being a terrorist and become an anti apartheid / civils rights hero for the world to celebrate? What were the key factors which changed people's perception of Nelson Mandela?

Foxy_Dread

Travis_Bickle

1 Of course I am not in a position to personally determine whether Israel are committing war crimes, but I am happy to accept the findings of academics who specialise on the subject, and internationally recognised bodies who rule on such matters that war crimes have taken place.

2 You quoted the number of 250 Palestine bad uns, based on things I've read from the aforementioned academics etc, I'm confident that many more than 250 Jewish people have committed acts that could be described as war crimes. I use the term jewish as nationalities other than Israelis serve in the Israeli army/IDF.

Palestinians wanting Jews out of Palestine rather than Israelis, see above comment about non Israeli Jews serving in the IDF.
Palestinians do bad things. Hamas are labelled terrorists. Israel are a nation. I expect a nation to act in a manner befitting that of a member of the international community, to respect laws, conventions and any other code laid down to ensure armed forces and governments behave in an acceptable manner as per the rules, laws and codes. I'm English and I'm ashamed when military forces representing me break rules and conventions in combat. I hate how our UK troops 'kept the peace' in Northern Ireland, I hate how around the world we have executed citizens and soldiers because it was the easy option. I think all armies should act to the highest standards.

Travis_Bickle

Foxy_Dread so October the 7th was carried out by 'freedom fighters'? The people who blew up my colleagues's 16-year old cousin at a bus stop were 'civil rights heroes'? The ones who still vow to kill every Jew wherever they may be on earth are to be celebrated by the world?
That's your response?

Foxy_Dread

Travis_Bickle
As you know I said none of those things. I was merely pointing out that how groups are perceived can change through time, not just locally, but to the world.

cordshoes

What is the difference between the c. 250 people taken as prisoners/hostages 2 years ago, and the c. 1700 people who are detained without charge in a similar part of the middle East.
It's confusing as, although the actual physical circumstances of confinement appear similar, they are reported in totally different ways.

Travis_Bickle

cordshoes there may not be a qualitative difference for some of them.
But Israel didn't parade any of those 1700 half naked through the streets, spitting on them as they did so. Or kill them. And none of the 1700 were four years old. Or nine months old. Most of their capture wasn't livestreamed to relatives to maximise distress.

cordshoes

Travis_Bickle not sure the treatment of children and the distress caused to families is the best point to make.
Add in the original point relating to how the released people are described and what the 2 countries look like now, and it is easy to see where empathy should sit.

Travis_Bickle

Here's another thing to consider. The most authoritative accounts that we have of mistreatment of detained Palestinians and human rights violations come from B'Teselem, a Jerusalem-based Israeli non-profit organisation. They face praise and criticism in equal measure. Their evidence is questioned by some.
But they are still active after 36 years. A thorn in the side of governments and the IDF.
All achieved in what we're told is a genocidal, apartheid state.

Travis_Bickle

Foxy_Dread you're floating the idea that those who wish to kill all Jews and indoctrinate their kids in that way might one day be regarded as freedom fighters defending civil rights. I struggle to get my head around that tbh.

Travis_Bickle

Specialist academics? Like the IAGS? An organisation you can join for $30 and no academic credentials. Only 28% of their membership voted. The report was based upon, amongst other things, UN statistics that they themselves hadn't verified. They broke with their usual protocols and didn't hold a debate amongst the membership as is the norm.
Or maybe the UN Commission of Inquiry report. As I posted some time ago, given people like Miloon Khotari and Francesca Albanese talk not of an 'Israeli' problem, but a 'Jewish' one, you'll forgive me if I look elsewhere.
Let's remind ourselves what the latter said about October the 7th, 'the victims of the October 7 massacre were killed not because of their Judaism, but in response to Israeli oppression'. If it looks like justification of indiscriminate killing and sounds like justification of indiscriminate killing....

All armies and nation states should be held to high standards. But you suggested some moral hierarchy in the conflict. That somehow Palestinians cam be forgiven for their own excesses as they're not a 'government'.
Around 6000 entered Israel on October the 7th. A little more than the 250 released who'd been convicted in the past. About 2,200 of those were civilians. That's my point. 'Poisonous cunts' were the words I think you used. There are plenty on both sides.
And for those 'poisonous cunts' on the Palestinian side, it's not about an Israeli/Jewish distinction. It's killing all Jews. Everywhere.

Here's a question for you. How many of the 30,000 plus members of Hamas are now dead?
How many of the 1000s more that could be called upon to supplement those numbers are dead?

And if there's been an ongoing genocide, how are there literally millions more Palestinians in Israel now than there were in 1948?

Travis_Bickle

Should have added this. Netanyahu extended this conflict for his own political aims. He appeased the more extreme elements of Israeli politics that shore up his fragile coalition. He increasingly ignored the families of the hostages and those who support them. He played a game. Badly. And that caused unnecessary suffering and deaths.
But talk of genocide is, at best, premature and, in my opinion, wrong.

90Piesanhour

Travis_Bickle Thank you for finally providing an answer to my genocide question. Should it turn out that thousands haven’t been killed and that all the destroyed and bulldozed buildings were AI generated, then I shall apologise wholeheartedly for my error.

Travis_Bickle

cordshoes My point about the families of the hostages was a comment on Netanyahu's failings. Grief isn't a competition with a winner and a loser. Why can't empathy exist for both? Why can't we recognise the pain of people like Yarden Bibas and, at the same time, of the 1000s of families who've lost loved ones in Gaza?
It seems that for many on here empathy should only sit with one side. It's usually accompanied with talk of '70 years' and 'a terrorist state'. I understand that some here and elsewhere probably recognise Israel's right to exist. I do.

cordshoes

Travis_Bickle
Me also.
But not as the type of country and regime that they were set up to get away from.

Travis_Bickle

cordshoes they're not close to that regime. Nazi Germany committed the industrialised slaughter of millions. Israel has not done that. I think ill-founded comparisons like that are part of the problem.
Israel's Knesset has 120 seats. 10 are held by Arabs. There have been Arabs present since the first elections in 1949. Around 20% of Israel's population are Arabs. There are Arab judges in the Israeli Supreme Court.
To suggest that it is some tolerant utopia would be crass. But it is a world away from the regime the Jews endured in the 30s and 40s.
Those comparisons are deeply hurtful to the overwhelming majority of our Jewish community.

Travis_Bickle

90Piesanhour killing people and destroying buildings isn't genocide. The word matters.

cordshoes

Travis_Bickle
Those comparisons are deeply hurtful to the overwhelming majority of our Jewish community.

The poor mites.
Not as harmful as the actions of the Israeli government for 2 years.
Not just the deaths and serious injuries, the whole fucking scorched earth of Palestinian land.

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